Trams in Edinburgh
Discussion
Theyre finding since laying tramlines down the main streets that cyclists are getting their wheels caught
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-ea...
Whats the running costs like for trams vs buses ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-ea...
Whats the running costs like for trams vs buses ?
As far as I can tell, the big problem is junctions like Haymarket where the tram rails cross the road at fairly shallow angles. Example here - https://goo.gl/maps/DQKYYNnB6Wm - note the dotted yellow cycle lane that's been painted on to try to guide cyclists away from the rails. In other cities that I've seen (e.g. Manchester, Amsterdam) almost all the road crossings seem to be at nearly 90 degree angles so the cyclists bump across the rails rather than getting caught in the grooves.
I had a colleague who broke a collar bone coming off his bike this way at Haymarket - he avoided reoccurrence by moving to Glasgow.
I don't cycle, but can see how easily it can happen - there is a lot going on at these junctions and it looks very difficult to keep your eye on the road surface in front of you as well as all the traffic tearing around beside you, overtaking you, and trying to beat you off the lights, as well as these odd trains that keep appearing in the middle of the road when you least expect them.
The Council is spending money on cycle routes, but avoiding complex, busy junctions that accommodate trams, buses, HGVs as well as private cars in a compact city centre is impossible without the routes taking unpopular detours.
There just isn't suitable space to accommodate all of these road users in one place in an old city - one of the user groups will likely have to go to make it work.
I don't cycle, but can see how easily it can happen - there is a lot going on at these junctions and it looks very difficult to keep your eye on the road surface in front of you as well as all the traffic tearing around beside you, overtaking you, and trying to beat you off the lights, as well as these odd trains that keep appearing in the middle of the road when you least expect them.
The Council is spending money on cycle routes, but avoiding complex, busy junctions that accommodate trams, buses, HGVs as well as private cars in a compact city centre is impossible without the routes taking unpopular detours.
There just isn't suitable space to accommodate all of these road users in one place in an old city - one of the user groups will likely have to go to make it work.
saaby93 said:
Theyre finding since laying tramlines down the main streets that cyclists are getting their wheels caught
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-ea...
Whats the running costs like for trams vs buses ?
Don't think I would be happy on that cycle path, (just further up the road) with a tram coming up behind me.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-ea...
Whats the running costs like for trams vs buses ?
Doesn't seem much room between you and the tram.
It really isn't a problem- I live in a city with an extensive tram network and huge number of cyclists. As a cyclist, one is usually very aware about tram tracks and how to cross them; you would only make the mistake once, believe me!
As a spectator (tongue in cheek), it can be hugely amusing to see the outcome of a bike getting caught in the rails- usually arse over t!t and a severely bent wheel. Not quite so amusing when there is a bike/tram interface- always the bike's fault. As an aside, seeing a tram do an emergency stop is pretty impressive
So if cycling and trams are part of everyday, common living, there's really no problem. If going to a city with trams is somewhat novel (as in the UK perhaps), then it can be daunting, even as a car driver. Observation is key and you need to keep your wits about you!
As a spectator (tongue in cheek), it can be hugely amusing to see the outcome of a bike getting caught in the rails- usually arse over t!t and a severely bent wheel. Not quite so amusing when there is a bike/tram interface- always the bike's fault. As an aside, seeing a tram do an emergency stop is pretty impressive
So if cycling and trams are part of everyday, common living, there's really no problem. If going to a city with trams is somewhat novel (as in the UK perhaps), then it can be daunting, even as a car driver. Observation is key and you need to keep your wits about you!
This, if werent for the amount of injuries and now a fatality, really is a joke! (actually - like the whole tram fiasco!!)
cant people open their eyes and look where they are cycling?
I have cycled along princes st and through haymarket quite a few times since the tracks were laid - thinking about it, always in the pissing rain - the tracks are VERY OBVIOUS and not at all hard to avoid - they are VERY slippy in the rain - not really surprising as they are smooth steel.
In the particular place shown above - look at the road markings, you DO NOT CROSS THE LINES - you cycle alongside them and cross them later, its not hard - a 10 year old could do it - this admittedly has changed after a few tumbles when it did cross them before. It is now very well known as a spot you have to take extra care and is heavily signed as such I think.
the last accident was really unfortunate - the lady in question got stuck in a track from crossing it at a very shallow angle, fell over and was hit by a bus following her. this was not at the junction that everyone likes to hate which is the one in the picture above.
Surely its quite obvious that if you try to cycle across an inch deep channel thats about 2 inches wide - bordered on both sides with shiny steel - at too shallow an angle, your asking for trouble? if its not, then how do people in europe cope?? there are many more cyclists and many more trams...
and the comment about the cycleroute in the picture above being a bit near the tram - the tram follows the same rules of the road as the cars - do you think its going to barge past you and knock you off?? no, it wont.... its stopping at a stop in about another 50yds, and is following you at your speed - the tram drivers appear to me to be VERY careful about cyclists and I have never had an issue with a tram - they actually intermingle with the traffic nearly seamlessly.
cycling in Edinburgh city centre is not at all scary, and I dont think its got any worse for the installation of the tram-tracks.
cant people open their eyes and look where they are cycling?
I have cycled along princes st and through haymarket quite a few times since the tracks were laid - thinking about it, always in the pissing rain - the tracks are VERY OBVIOUS and not at all hard to avoid - they are VERY slippy in the rain - not really surprising as they are smooth steel.
In the particular place shown above - look at the road markings, you DO NOT CROSS THE LINES - you cycle alongside them and cross them later, its not hard - a 10 year old could do it - this admittedly has changed after a few tumbles when it did cross them before. It is now very well known as a spot you have to take extra care and is heavily signed as such I think.
the last accident was really unfortunate - the lady in question got stuck in a track from crossing it at a very shallow angle, fell over and was hit by a bus following her. this was not at the junction that everyone likes to hate which is the one in the picture above.
Surely its quite obvious that if you try to cycle across an inch deep channel thats about 2 inches wide - bordered on both sides with shiny steel - at too shallow an angle, your asking for trouble? if its not, then how do people in europe cope?? there are many more cyclists and many more trams...
and the comment about the cycleroute in the picture above being a bit near the tram - the tram follows the same rules of the road as the cars - do you think its going to barge past you and knock you off?? no, it wont.... its stopping at a stop in about another 50yds, and is following you at your speed - the tram drivers appear to me to be VERY careful about cyclists and I have never had an issue with a tram - they actually intermingle with the traffic nearly seamlessly.
cycling in Edinburgh city centre is not at all scary, and I dont think its got any worse for the installation of the tram-tracks.
I think the big problem in Edinburgh is that the tramlines have been installed as a bit of an afterthought without real planning (more than likely just taking the cheapest option). Yes, in Europe (including in the city where I live) there are a lot of trams and cyclists seem to cope well enough but generally you don't have trams going round corners with a cycle lane painted next to them. In fact, bikes usually share the tram tracks in pedestrianised areas.
The pic above looks nasty as you're riding round the outside of the bend and if you need to avoid someone stepping off the curb as a cyclist then you're in the tram tracks. If you're on the inside it's much easier to cross the tracks at a bit of an angle but from the outside you've got no chance. Throw in a bit of rain and it's a whole different story though, in a lot of scenarios the only option is to stop and dismount in order to cross the tracks safely unless you can go over the tracks at about a 90 degree angle. If the infrastructure isn't designed for this to happen then you're stuffed.
The pic above looks nasty as you're riding round the outside of the bend and if you need to avoid someone stepping off the curb as a cyclist then you're in the tram tracks. If you're on the inside it's much easier to cross the tracks at a bit of an angle but from the outside you've got no chance. Throw in a bit of rain and it's a whole different story though, in a lot of scenarios the only option is to stop and dismount in order to cross the tracks safely unless you can go over the tracks at about a 90 degree angle. If the infrastructure isn't designed for this to happen then you're stuffed.
jamiebae said:
I think the big problem in Edinburgh is that the tramlines have been installed as a bit of an afterthought without real planning (more than likely just taking the cheapest option). Yes, in Europe (including in the city where I live) there are a lot of trams and cyclists seem to cope well enough but generally you don't have trams going round corners with a cycle lane painted next to them. In fact, bikes usually share the tram tracks in pedestrianised areas.
The pic above looks nasty as you're riding round the outside of the bend and if you need to avoid someone stepping off the curb as a cyclist then you're in the tram tracks. If you're on the inside it's much easier to cross the tracks at a bit of an angle but from the outside you've got no chance. Throw in a bit of rain and it's a whole different story though, in a lot of scenarios the only option is to stop and dismount in order to cross the tracks safely unless you can go over the tracks at about a 90 degree angle. If the infrastructure isn't designed for this to happen then you're stuffed.
Agree, I suppose it wouldnt occur to the tram driver to slow down a bit if the cycle path there was narrow, raining and numerous pedestrians.The pic above looks nasty as you're riding round the outside of the bend and if you need to avoid someone stepping off the curb as a cyclist then you're in the tram tracks. If you're on the inside it's much easier to cross the tracks at a bit of an angle but from the outside you've got no chance. Throw in a bit of rain and it's a whole different story though, in a lot of scenarios the only option is to stop and dismount in order to cross the tracks safely unless you can go over the tracks at about a 90 degree angle. If the infrastructure isn't designed for this to happen then you're stuffed.
But bottom line is just plain bad planning.
saaby93 said:
Crazy
it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
Looking at that photo again, where the cycle path is coloured, there is no separation between the edge and the tram like, seems a cyclist although in the path boundary s could be zapped by a passing train.it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
And they make a song and dance about cars giving cyclists adequate room, what happened here, apart from bad planning.
Vipers said:
saaby93 said:
Crazy
it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
Looking at that photo again, where the cycle path is coloured, there is no separation between the edge and the tram like, seems a cyclist although in the path boundary s could be zapped by a passing tra.it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
And they make a song and dance about cars giving cyclists adequate room, what happened here, apart from bad planning.
Basically don't abandon a vehicle there as it would block the tram.
Vipers said:
Agree, I suppose it wouldnt occur to the tram driver to slow down a bit if the cycle path there was narrow, raining and numerous pedestrians.
But bottom line is just plain bad planning.
I may be misunderstanding your comment here, so apologies if I am...But bottom line is just plain bad planning.
The tram trundles through here at not much above walking speed, and DOES take note of any cyclists and other obstructions (like the t
ts walking around on another planet glued to their phones). My comment about the trams following the rules of the road really does apply - they will slowly follow you if you are cycling along that particular bit in the photograph on this thread - they cant pull out and overtake you, so they dont!you seem (again, I may be missing your point), to be under the misunderstanding that the trams come hurtling through here at speed - they dont! they dont appear to go much over 10mph anywhere they are sharing the road with pedestrians and cyclists (all the way from haymarket to the end of the line). Im not aware of any cyclist having a collision with any tram, or any complaints of a tram "bullying" one off the road.
yes I would 100% agree that the interface between cyclists and the tram-tracks wasnt very well planned at this junction - this is what happens when you put a social-worker in charge of a pretty major engineering project, but the solution is quite easy - ban cyclists from this particular junction and also anywhere they may interface with the tracks at less than 90 degrees. The tram cant go anywhere else, the cyclists have rather a lot of options available. This view will probably be read with horror by the cyclista, but its simple, effective and achievable.
AndrewEH1 said:
Vipers said:
saaby93 said:
Crazy
it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
Looking at that photo again, where the cycle path is coloured, there is no separation between the edge and the tram like, seems a cyclist although in the path boundary s could be zapped by a passing tra.it looks as though the painted cycle logo and the yellow dots are telling cyclists to leave arm room from the tram, then further up the cycle lane is right next to it. is the bike the wrong side of the dots?
And they make a song and dance about cars giving cyclists adequate room, what happened here, apart from bad planning.
Basically don't abandon a vehicle there as it would block the tram.
Mrtee said:
Vipers said:
Agree, I suppose it wouldnt occur to the tram driver to slow down a bit if the cycle path there was narrow, raining and numerous pedestrians.
But bottom line is just plain bad planning.
I may be misunderstanding your comment here, so apologies if I am...But bottom line is just plain bad planning.
The tram trundles through here at not much above walking speed, and DOES take note of any cyclists and other obstructions (like the t
ts walking around on another planet glued to their phones). My comment about the trams following the rules of the road really does apply - they will slowly follow you if you are cycling along that particular bit in the photograph on this thread - they cant pull out and overtake you, so they dont!you seem (again, I may be missing your point), to be under the misunderstanding that the trams come hurtling through here at speed - they dont! they dont appear to go much over 10mph anywhere they are sharing the road with pedestrians and cyclists (all the way from haymarket to the end of the line). Im not aware of any cyclist having a collision with any tram, or any complaints of a tram "bullying" one off the road.
yes I would 100% agree that the interface between cyclists and the tram-tracks wasnt very well planned at this junction - this is what happens when you put a social-worker in charge of a pretty major engineering project, but the solution is quite easy - ban cyclists from this particular junction and also anywhere they may interface with the tracks at less than 90 degrees. The tram cant go anywhere else, the cyclists have rather a lot of options available. This view will probably be read with horror by the cyclista, but its simple, effective and achievable.
We had sunken train lines in Portsmouth dockyard when just about every man jack in the dockyard population rode bikes. Can't recall bikes and train lines being a problem.
I get the feeling that there's so much hate for the trams given the cost fiasco that the press and many of the public will find any excuse to portray them in a negative light. Just a thought but having crashed and banged my way through the city recently, wonder how many cyclists have been thrown off line or indeed off completely but one of the many crater spec potholes? And whilst the incident recently was tragic, what if a cyclist had been sauntering along, hit a pothole or sunken man hole cover and come of and went under a bus... likewise, ever hit a series of wet cats eyes on a bike? You don't do you, you avoid them because common sense says it won't end well. Sometimes it's unavoidable but such is life.
As has been said, you have many different road users all fighting over a small area of tarmac so inevitably there will be conflict... it's not different from cyclists, walkers and horse riders all arguing over the same trail but ultimately, courtesy for fellow users needs to prevail and it would seem that the trams are under the spot light so much just now, the drivers / operator is being very cautious to avoid any incidents. Trams and bikes have shared city spec across the globe for years.
As has been said, you have many different road users all fighting over a small area of tarmac so inevitably there will be conflict... it's not different from cyclists, walkers and horse riders all arguing over the same trail but ultimately, courtesy for fellow users needs to prevail and it would seem that the trams are under the spot light so much just now, the drivers / operator is being very cautious to avoid any incidents. Trams and bikes have shared city spec across the globe for years.
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