Yachts - second hand values
Discussion
I've recently become interested in learning to sail and perhaps getting a boat when I retire in a few years (and if so with intention of spending a year or so on it). At this point I don't know anything about boats nor how the second hand market works. Although buying a boat would be quite some time in the future I have been looking at some available on the internet and can't make head nor tail of the pricing: two boats that to me seem quite similar can vary in price by as much as a factor of 10. Clearly I could be comparing the equivalent of a VW Passat with a Merc S Class! Any tips on what drives values?
Does the boat market work similar to cars i.e. if you buy new then you get a warranty and fewer problems but lose a lot in depreciation (such that perhaps buying nearly new is better value)? Or do the maintenance costs on older boats mean that buying second hand is a false economy?
For going to the Med and perhaps further afield, what would be the ideal boat for a couple (new or used)?
Does the boat market work similar to cars i.e. if you buy new then you get a warranty and fewer problems but lose a lot in depreciation (such that perhaps buying nearly new is better value)? Or do the maintenance costs on older boats mean that buying second hand is a false economy?
For going to the Med and perhaps further afield, what would be the ideal boat for a couple (new or used)?
Firstly, the maintenance costs on a boat are constant, the fact that it is a year old, or 10 years or 40 years doesn't make a huge amount of difference, unless there are underlying issues with the hull. With boats I would say the biggest factor driving new boats is status and perception, plenty of millionaires out their who see a boat as a status symbol more than anything else, these are the types driving new sales every 5-10 years, however with that being said, if you do find yourself in an older, grubby example, you may find many of the 'nicer' marinas will deny you access to their moorings and facilities.
On the used market the value, as you say, is very fluid, this could be down to some factors, one being large maintenance jobs coming up, such as hull regels or new sails. But a big part of it would be the sellers need to sell, boats are a VERY slow market, it's not uncommon for a fairly priced upmarket example to take years to sell. So many sellers will severely undervalue their boat just to get rid of it, and it's constant costs.
My recommendation, buy something small(ish) with a trailer, depending on your budget this will limit your size somewhat, but trailer sailers are a much easier sell, and if you find it isn't for you a boat sitting on your drive is going to cost MUCH less than a boat sitting at a mooring. Most marinas will be able to launch a sailboat for £20-50, then another 20-50 to lift it out again, although their are hull designs (lift or bilge keel) that can be launched yourself.
Remember, boats are the single worse investment of your cash, if you are treating it as anything other than a bit of fun then you need a stern talking too.
On the used market the value, as you say, is very fluid, this could be down to some factors, one being large maintenance jobs coming up, such as hull regels or new sails. But a big part of it would be the sellers need to sell, boats are a VERY slow market, it's not uncommon for a fairly priced upmarket example to take years to sell. So many sellers will severely undervalue their boat just to get rid of it, and it's constant costs.
My recommendation, buy something small(ish) with a trailer, depending on your budget this will limit your size somewhat, but trailer sailers are a much easier sell, and if you find it isn't for you a boat sitting on your drive is going to cost MUCH less than a boat sitting at a mooring. Most marinas will be able to launch a sailboat for £20-50, then another 20-50 to lift it out again, although their are hull designs (lift or bilge keel) that can be launched yourself.
Remember, boats are the single worse investment of your cash, if you are treating it as anything other than a bit of fun then you need a stern talking too.
Whilst a slightly different question similar has been discussed recently.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I just posted on your other thread about the flotilla next year.
I, like many others here have started on the journey you are on, I'd say about 10 years ago.
We still haven't bought anything, despite looking once or twice.
The Med has a very large bareboat charter population and you can negotiate very good discounts on just about any location and type of boat.
There are also plenty of websites where you can get in touch directly with the owners and cut-out the mark-ups.
If you are hell-bent on buying then you should look at the buying schemes from Sunsail/Navigare/etc. that have helped to create this large population of boats in the first place.
These schemes essentially reduce the cost of buying (predominantly new boats) by up to 50% in exchange for their access to your boat for chartering it it out. You get a fixed number of weeks a year for your own use (with Sunsail this extends to any equivalent or lesser boat at any base worldwide, so not just your own boat) and they take care of berthing/maintenance/repairs/insurance, basically everything else.
Once the boat is say 5 years old you either withdraw it from the scheme and own it outright or you just trade it in and start a new scheme.
Good luck!
I, like many others here have started on the journey you are on, I'd say about 10 years ago.
We still haven't bought anything, despite looking once or twice.
The Med has a very large bareboat charter population and you can negotiate very good discounts on just about any location and type of boat.
There are also plenty of websites where you can get in touch directly with the owners and cut-out the mark-ups.
If you are hell-bent on buying then you should look at the buying schemes from Sunsail/Navigare/etc. that have helped to create this large population of boats in the first place.
These schemes essentially reduce the cost of buying (predominantly new boats) by up to 50% in exchange for their access to your boat for chartering it it out. You get a fixed number of weeks a year for your own use (with Sunsail this extends to any equivalent or lesser boat at any base worldwide, so not just your own boat) and they take care of berthing/maintenance/repairs/insurance, basically everything else.
Once the boat is say 5 years old you either withdraw it from the scheme and own it outright or you just trade it in and start a new scheme.
Good luck!
cast.roses said:
Maybe go on a Coastal Skipper course first and see how you like it before even thinking about buying anything?
Coastal skipper, to see if he likes boating? That's a bit much surely?The RYA introduction to yachting would be more than sufficient, even the competent crew or at a push day skipper. Coastal skipper would just put a novice off IMO.
Also consider one crucial difference between the yacht and car market. Cars have a reasonably well defined lifetime with an established and simple mechanism of disposal. On the other hand, GRP (i.e. plastic) boats don't rot and so pretty much every boat made in the last 40 years is still going although the mechanical e.g. engines and rigging are due for replacement. Yacht engines in particular are astonishingly expensive for what they are which is basically simple old design generator engines with some seawater-proof bits on them,
Yacht design also continues to improve with newer models offering more space and performance than before, putting further pressure on the price of old models.
Therefore the supply of yachts is constantly increasing but demand is not (in this country anyway) so you will find the same model/year of yacht many K apart in price based on condition of engine/rigging/sails/number of deck leaks etc.
The last 10 years have devastated the used market, particularly at the lower end, and there is nothing to stop the decline. There has never been better time to buy a boat nor a worse time to sell one.
Yacht design also continues to improve with newer models offering more space and performance than before, putting further pressure on the price of old models.
Therefore the supply of yachts is constantly increasing but demand is not (in this country anyway) so you will find the same model/year of yacht many K apart in price based on condition of engine/rigging/sails/number of deck leaks etc.
The last 10 years have devastated the used market, particularly at the lower end, and there is nothing to stop the decline. There has never been better time to buy a boat nor a worse time to sell one.
Not sure about sailing boats, but the motor cruiser market seems to have gone silly since I last bought a boat.
A boat I bought in 2002's new price was about a third of the equivalent new boat now. I see that in today's resale values too, as I sold that boat in 2007 and it is back on the market now at only 6k less than I sold it at - and that is pretty representative of the rest of advertised similar models.
I wonder if this is like the TVR price hike back in the 80s? When I bough a Grif, they were 27k new. The next year they went up to 34k new. So when I sold mine at two years old, it went for a little more than I paid for it. It wasn't far off that when I sold my boat frankly.
A boat I bought in 2002's new price was about a third of the equivalent new boat now. I see that in today's resale values too, as I sold that boat in 2007 and it is back on the market now at only 6k less than I sold it at - and that is pretty representative of the rest of advertised similar models.
I wonder if this is like the TVR price hike back in the 80s? When I bough a Grif, they were 27k new. The next year they went up to 34k new. So when I sold mine at two years old, it went for a little more than I paid for it. It wasn't far off that when I sold my boat frankly.
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