Discussion
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. There are many lines that today, would be ideal to have, but are lost to time. From where I live, the line Horsham to Guildford would be excellent. As would the direct Horsham to Brighton line. But neither of these exist any longer
But 50+ years ago, is well before my time and I have no idea how valid those routes would have been at the time.
Found this documentary on the impact Beeching had in the South of England.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwSv-kr7-SY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwSv-kr7-SY
Shakermaker said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. There are many lines that today, would be ideal to have, but are lost to time. From where I live, the line Horsham to Guildford would be excellent. As would the direct Horsham to Brighton line. But neither of these exist any longer
But 50+ years ago, is well before my time and I have no idea how valid those routes would have been at the time.
It's well before my time too. The Hornsea and Withernsea lines both closed within a few days of each other in 1964 and the Hornsea MP tried really hard to get the closure overturned but was told to drop it as if they reprieved Hornsea it would cause bitterness in Withernsea. My local line was the York to Beverley line which closed in 1965, there's a group trying to get it reopened but they haven't got further than a feasibility study done about 20 years ago.But 50+ years ago, is well before my time and I have no idea how valid those routes would have been at the time.
Very broad brush, I think a lot of the branch lines were daft and unsustainable in the age of the car, but some of the through routes should have been kept, even just as useful diversions, e.g. it's daft that Dawlish is the only railway in and out of Cornwall.
If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
Johnnytheboy said:
Very broad brush, I think a lot of the branch lines were daft and unsustainable in the age of the car, but some of the through routes should have been kept, even just as useful diversions, e.g. it's daft that Dawlish is the only railway in and out of Cornwall.
If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
Very much this. You'd like to think it is hindsight, but the British Waterways example suggests otherwise. Living on a small Island the track "property" ought to have been sacrosanct, with very strict agreement over it's use.If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
The waterways retained ownership of disused canals and wrote into wayleave agreements the cost liability of services etc having to be rerouted if the Canals were ever made navigable again. There have been Motorways lifted and Gas Pipelines moved near us because of this.
The same should have happened with the railways - once lost never to be returned. No doubt there were vested interests that wanted to develop track, but it's a crying shame.
Johnnytheboy said:
Very broad brush, I think a lot of the branch lines were daft and unsustainable in the age of the car, but some of the through routes should have been kept, even just as useful diversions, e.g. it's daft that Dawlish is the only railway in and out of Cornwall.
If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
And as we now see, the Age of the Car is slowing somewhatIf Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
I guess that 50 years ago, there were expectations that millions of new houses would be bought, all with 2 car driveways, roads wide enough for everyone to get along
but instead, houses were built with no accommodation for cars, and so everyone is now wanting to get the train into work again, but can't because there are no trains..
Johnnytheboy said:
Very broad brush, I think a lot of the branch lines were daft and unsustainable in the age of the car, but some of the through routes should have been kept, even just as useful diversions, e.g. it's daft that Dawlish is the only railway in and out of Cornwall.
If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
One of the problems was the government when Beeching was appointed was very much pro road. 'COUGH Marples COUGH'If Beeching had known how politically unfashionable building new roads would become only 30 years later, he may have thought again!
Perhaps it would have been better to shut the through routes but (a) not rip the track up, and (b) not build on the lines.
Leithen said:
Very much this. You'd like to think it is hindsight, but the British Waterways example suggests otherwise. Living on a small Island the track "property" ought to have been sacrosanct, with very strict agreement over it's use.
The waterways retained ownership of disused canals and wrote into wayleave agreements the cost liability of services etc having to be rerouted if the Canals were ever made navigable again. There have been Motorways lifted and Gas Pipelines moved near us because of this.
The same should have happened with the railways - once lost never to be returned. No doubt there were vested interests that wanted to develop track, but it's a crying shame.
Indeed. I live in Cambridge, and there is much hubris across the political spectrum at the prospect of the Oxford-Cambridge line being reopened. They just need to work out the route it should take into Cambridge itself, as they've built a guided busway and park and ride over the old trackbed. The waterways retained ownership of disused canals and wrote into wayleave agreements the cost liability of services etc having to be rerouted if the Canals were ever made navigable again. There have been Motorways lifted and Gas Pipelines moved near us because of this.
The same should have happened with the railways - once lost never to be returned. No doubt there were vested interests that wanted to develop track, but it's a crying shame.
Was it not also the case that a lot of the lines were heavily manned for a very sparse service, so the cost per passenger would have been very high?
If it had been possible to de-staff the stations and automate the signalling then I guess it might have been possible to save some of the lines, but at the time the only real investment in centralised control & automation was on the busiest main lines.
Then again, had BR not wasted a large chunk of the modernisation plan money in the 1950s on useless purchases, would Beeching have ever been brought in?
If it had been possible to de-staff the stations and automate the signalling then I guess it might have been possible to save some of the lines, but at the time the only real investment in centralised control & automation was on the busiest main lines.
Then again, had BR not wasted a large chunk of the modernisation plan money in the 1950s on useless purchases, would Beeching have ever been brought in?
Shakermaker said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. There are many lines that today, would be ideal to have, but are lost to time. From where I live, the line Horsham to Guildford would be excellent. As would the direct Horsham to Brighton line. But neither of these exist any longer
But 50+ years ago, is well before my time and I have no idea how valid those routes would have been at the time.
Three Bridges to East Grinstead and EG to Lewes - both would been fantastic now.But 50+ years ago, is well before my time and I have no idea how valid those routes would have been at the time.
DMN said:
Closing the lines was correct at the time.
Selling the lines off will be wrong forever.
I wholeheartedly agreeSelling the lines off will be wrong forever.
alangla said:
Was it not also the case that a lot of the lines were heavily manned for a very sparse service, so the cost per passenger would have been very high?
If it had been possible to de-staff the stations and automate the signalling then I guess it might have been possible to save some of the lines, but at the time the only real investment in centralised control & automation was on the busiest main lines.
Then again, had BR not wasted a large chunk of the modernisation plan money in the 1950s on useless purchases, would Beeching have ever been brought in?
This is also true, BR was hemorrhaging money by the early 1960s and something had to be done to try and stem the losses, however with hindsight the programme went too farIf it had been possible to de-staff the stations and automate the signalling then I guess it might have been possible to save some of the lines, but at the time the only real investment in centralised control & automation was on the busiest main lines.
Then again, had BR not wasted a large chunk of the modernisation plan money in the 1950s on useless purchases, would Beeching have ever been brought in?
Even with the benefit of hindsight, it's obvious that vast numbers of branch lines were too costly and/or of too little benefit to survive longer term. However, it's a great shame that some significant lengths of main line railway, linking key towns and cities, were also closed down - the Great Central being a prime example.
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