HMS Ocean sold to Brazil
Discussion
Apparently the sale, for £84M, has been confirmed by Brazilian Defence Minister Raul Jungmann. We knew in all probability that that was coming, but I do have some questions for those who know more than I....
- It was a helicopter carrier and an amphibious assault ship - I assume the QE class will cover the heli role until the F35s are deployed - but what then, or do we not have a specific need for heli carrying?
- What amphibious assault capability does the RN now have - how will this role be covered going forward?
- It has been active for only 20 or so years - which seems short to me, or is that about right?
- I know Brazil don't have a lot of spare cash, but £84M seems very cheap for such a large chunk of floating real estate - how are such values decided?
The heli role will be covered by the Queen Liz.
We also have Bulwark and Albion which are proper amphibious assets.
However the next defence review is expected to scrap them. With the expected cuts to the marines we will not have or need and amphibious capability.
We will at the current rate of cuts have no capability at all with 10 years
We also have Bulwark and Albion which are proper amphibious assets.
However the next defence review is expected to scrap them. With the expected cuts to the marines we will not have or need and amphibious capability.
We will at the current rate of cuts have no capability at all with 10 years
baldy1926 said:
The heli role will be covered by the Queen Liz.
We also have Bulwark and Albion which are proper amphibious assets.
However the next defence review is expected to scrap them. With the expected cuts to the marines we will not have or need and amphibious capability.
We will at the current rate of cuts have no capability at all with 10 years
Aren't Bulwark & Albion currently alternated due to lack of manpower?We also have Bulwark and Albion which are proper amphibious assets.
However the next defence review is expected to scrap them. With the expected cuts to the marines we will not have or need and amphibious capability.
We will at the current rate of cuts have no capability at all with 10 years
Some answers hopefully -
1. QE2 and PoW are large enough to cope with both fixed wing and rotary, considering the Fixed Wing side is <15 F-35's.
2. We still have two Albion Class Assault/Landing Platform ships which are only 16 years old (see 3 too).
3. HMS Ocean was built to "commercial" quality specifications rather than Military, which basically meant is wasn't built to last 40+ years like most Military ships are as a way of keeping the price down. It also means that Brazil are buying a very well used ship without much "life" left in her *IF* she was still used in the same way that the RN used her i.e. excessively - so even though the "life" is low the Brazilians won't be using her that much.
4. Civil Servants at the MOD will have come up with a price for "X" tons of scrap at £X per ton and then used that price as a baseline for bids.
1. QE2 and PoW are large enough to cope with both fixed wing and rotary, considering the Fixed Wing side is <15 F-35's.
2. We still have two Albion Class Assault/Landing Platform ships which are only 16 years old (see 3 too).
3. HMS Ocean was built to "commercial" quality specifications rather than Military, which basically meant is wasn't built to last 40+ years like most Military ships are as a way of keeping the price down. It also means that Brazil are buying a very well used ship without much "life" left in her *IF* she was still used in the same way that the RN used her i.e. excessively - so even though the "life" is low the Brazilians won't be using her that much.
4. Civil Servants at the MOD will have come up with a price for "X" tons of scrap at £X per ton and then used that price as a baseline for bids.
had ham said:
Apparently the sale, for £84M, has been confirmed by Brazilian Defence Minister Raul Jungmann. We knew in all probability that that was coming, but I do have some questions for those who know more than I....
QE and POW will both be able to deploy with a mix of aircraft depending on scenario - so alongside F35s, they might focus on force protection with anti submarine and airborne early warning Merlins or in a littoral ops scenario, embark RAF Chinooks and Army Apaches alongside junglie Merlins. I forget what the official 'surge' figure is for QE, but think it was circa 50 aircraft max. If we see more than two (UK) squadrons of F35s embarked at any one time, I'd be amazed - there'll be plenty of space for rotary wing assets 99.99% of the time.- It was a helicopter carrier and an amphibious assault ship - I assume the QE class will cover the heli role until the F35s are deployed - but what then, or do we not have a specific need for heli carrying?
- What amphibious assault capability does the RN now have - how will this role be covered going forward?
- It has been active for only 20 or so years - which seems short to me, or is that about right?
- I know Brazil don't have a lot of spare cash, but £84M seems very cheap for such a large chunk of floating real estate - how are such values decided?
Both ships will be able to carry far more kit, men and helicopters than Ocean ever could - Prince of Wales is having a few tweaks to enable a larger Embarked Military Force (EMF) than the original spec - this will allow around 200 more bootnecks than Ocean IIRC.
But...our amphibious capability is borderline embarrassing. Of the three RFA Bay class Landing Ship Dock (LSD) we have left, one is pretty much permanently in the Gulf supporting mine countermeasure ops and we only ever have one Albion class Landing Platform Dock (LPD) available.
After threats of huge RM cuts circulating/leaking last year, there's resurgent backing for the Royal Marines internally right now, not to mention the prospect of the first ever bootneck Chief of Defence Staff - I think they'll escape some of the big slashes in capability we feared might happen.
£84m is cheap. But she needs a s
t load of work to take her beyond the Out of Service Date for RN use - engines fubared and fire main shagged too - neither are small jobs to fix. Has a whole host of idiosyncrasies that make life on board a pain in the arse.
Thank you all for your inputs - very insightful!
There really doesn't seem to be much in the way of joined-up thinking going on across the services and within each - somewhat embarrassing given our history.
Oh well, at least it's not just us - I see that the Germans have officially declined to commission the newly delivered Baden-Wurttenberg T125 'frigate' due to unacceptable software and hardware performance, and have returned it to B&V. Its design seems to have caused a fair bit of controversy too.
There really doesn't seem to be much in the way of joined-up thinking going on across the services and within each - somewhat embarrassing given our history.
Oh well, at least it's not just us - I see that the Germans have officially declined to commission the newly delivered Baden-Wurttenberg T125 'frigate' due to unacceptable software and hardware performance, and have returned it to B&V. Its design seems to have caused a fair bit of controversy too.
"It was a helicopter carrier and an amphibious assault ship - I assume the QE class will cover the heli role until the F35s are deployed - but what then, or do we not have a specific need for heli carrying? "
FOllowing the decision to decommission ocean in 2010 SDR, the design for the QE class was changed to allow them to offer the capability. PoW already has this with QE going into refit in 2025(ish) to get this. While there is a school of thought on not letting your carrier operate as an LPH, i think it's a bit unfounded given the size of the US wasp class. It will mean they will also be able to deploy more EMF (900) , more helicopters and still have some F35's.
What amphibious assault capability does the RN now have - how will this role be covered going forward? HMS Albion or HMS Bulwark depending on which one is operating at the time. However these are LPD, so have a well deck to land troops and vehicles by landing craft.
It has been active for only 20 or so years - which seems short to me, or is that about right?
She was almost not purchased at all due to the budget issues at the time, in the end it was decided to build her to cvillian and not military standards to save money ( i think the original intention was for her to replace Albion/Bulwark ferrying Marines to Norway. While in theory her life could be extended, decommissioning her now is more in line with her original life span. She will be less busy in Brazil.
FOllowing the decision to decommission ocean in 2010 SDR, the design for the QE class was changed to allow them to offer the capability. PoW already has this with QE going into refit in 2025(ish) to get this. While there is a school of thought on not letting your carrier operate as an LPH, i think it's a bit unfounded given the size of the US wasp class. It will mean they will also be able to deploy more EMF (900) , more helicopters and still have some F35's.
What amphibious assault capability does the RN now have - how will this role be covered going forward? HMS Albion or HMS Bulwark depending on which one is operating at the time. However these are LPD, so have a well deck to land troops and vehicles by landing craft.
It has been active for only 20 or so years - which seems short to me, or is that about right?
She was almost not purchased at all due to the budget issues at the time, in the end it was decided to build her to cvillian and not military standards to save money ( i think the original intention was for her to replace Albion/Bulwark ferrying Marines to Norway. While in theory her life could be extended, decommissioning her now is more in line with her original life span. She will be less busy in Brazil.
Yertis said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
in the end it was decided to build her to cvillian and not military standards to save money
What does this mean in reality? (i.e. how is the ship made differently)FourWheelDrift said:
Have a read here and the comments section - http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/10/naval-v-comm...
Fascinating, thanks for that!Yertis said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
in the end it was decided to build her to cvillian and not military standards to save money
What does this mean in reality? (i.e. how is the ship made differently)
:Built to civilian standards with some military modifcations (like LPH):
Built to military standards:
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