Why do so many ships run aground?
Discussion
As a ships captain, if you run a ship aground, does it tend to be career ending? I suppose there’s some kind of investigation (depending on who you work for) and it depends on whether it’s seems as your fault or not?
Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
El stovey said:
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
I'd imagine a liner/cruise ship with thousands of people on board is higher up the pecking order than a cargo ship because of the greater responsibility.El stovey said:
As a ships captain, if you run a ship aground, does it tend to be career ending? I suppose there’s some kind of investigation (depending on who you work for) and it depends on whether it’s seems as your fault or not?
Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
Can’t speak for the civvy world, but in the RN if you run a ship aground as CO you’ll be unlikely to ever ‘drive’ again. As a warfare officer, you’ll rarely have more than 3/4 chances to do so, so a big bump will be a career limiting event.Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
Know of two and one personally who’ve had the misfortune to have done just that and they’ve had their careers cut short. One in particular would have reached dizzy heights without doubt.
What I’ve always found odd is that whilst CO is ultimately (and rightly the fall guy), in both cases the navigators (whose job it is to avoid rocks) have ended up commanding further down the line...the RN is much more forgiving of those further down the food chain.
donutsina911 said:
El stovey said:
As a ships captain, if you run a ship aground, does it tend to be career ending? I suppose there’s some kind of investigation (depending on who you work for) and it depends on whether it’s seems as your fault or not?
Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
Can’t speak for the civvy world, but in the RN if you run a ship aground as CO you’ll be unlikely to ever ‘drive’ again. As a warfare officer, you’ll rarely have more than 3/4 chances to do so, so a big bump will be a career limiting event.Are captains generally on one ship for years or do they work for a shipping company and get a job on another ship often?
Say you were a captain and on a cargo ship, like captain Philips, could you then join Cunard and be a captain on an ocean liner? Or would you have to join as a junior ranking and work your way up?
Know of two and one personally who’ve had the misfortune to have done just that and they’ve had their careers cut short. One in particular would have reached dizzy heights without doubt.
What I’ve always found odd is that whilst CO is ultimately (and rightly the fall guy), in both cases the navigators (whose job it is to avoid rocks) have ended up commanding further down the line...the RN is much more forgiving of those further down the food chain.
If he/she was asleep in his cabin, and something occurred would he still be at fault? Or are these events always near the shore so classed as a time when the captain should be there actively monitoring what the navigator is doing?
Sorry for probably missing the correct terminology or the dynamics of the situation but I was interested in how it all works.
El stovey said:
So of the navigator hits a lighthouse (or whatever) would the captain always be there being captainly in the back ground?
If he/she was asleep in his cabin, and something occurred would he still be at fault? Or are these events always near the shore so classed as a time when the captain should be there actively monitoring what the navigator is doing?
Sorry for probably missing the correct terminology or the dynamics of the situation but I was interested in how it all works.
I think the concept is, the captain shouldn't have let someone incompetent, or excessively fatigued, do the job, that led to the crash. So regardless of awake/asleep, it's their fault that person did that thing.If he/she was asleep in his cabin, and something occurred would he still be at fault? Or are these events always near the shore so classed as a time when the captain should be there actively monitoring what the navigator is doing?
Sorry for probably missing the correct terminology or the dynamics of the situation but I was interested in how it all works.
Munter said:
El stovey said:
So of the navigator hits a lighthouse (or whatever) would the captain always be there being captainly in the back ground?
If he/she was asleep in his cabin, and something occurred would he still be at fault? Or are these events always near the shore so classed as a time when the captain should be there actively monitoring what the navigator is doing?
Sorry for probably missing the correct terminology or the dynamics of the situation but I was interested in how it all works.
I think the concept is, the captain shouldn't have let someone incompetent, or excessively fatigued, do the job, that led to the crash. So regardless of awake/asleep, it's their fault that person did that thing.If he/she was asleep in his cabin, and something occurred would he still be at fault? Or are these events always near the shore so classed as a time when the captain should be there actively monitoring what the navigator is doing?
Sorry for probably missing the correct terminology or the dynamics of the situation but I was interested in how it all works.
I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
El stovey said:
Presumably the RN has decided that a navigator (or whoever) is competent to hold that rank and perform the associated tasks?
I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
There tend to be less to run aground on in the deep blue, so with a lower risk it's more a case of making a plot, when you get to pilotage situations the NAv's and skipper normally check the route, sometimes the swinging circle at anchor is wrong or a rock had not been charted, such as in Aus.I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
However the old man in the navy, it's his ship and he should ensure the safety of it and the crew at all time, which is why his head is no the block.
Normally the Navy blames a third party, tide, current, wind or unexpected shipping.
Munter said:
I think the concept is, the captain shouldn't have let someone incompetent, or excessively fatigued, do the job, that led to the crash. So regardless of awake/asleep, it's their fault that person did that thing.
It's also easy to understand and saves fannying about playing the blame game. Own the job.El stovey said:
Presumably the RN has decided that a navigator (or whoever) is competent to hold that rank and perform the associated tasks?
I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
Buck always stops with CO (this becomes muddied if they’re off the ship and have delegated to a command qualified officer - normally the XO) I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
Sea command means he/she is always accountable for the ship. The officer of the watch (minimum) or navigator can have ‘conduct’ of the ship and her navigational safety, but it is the COs job to make sure they’re qualified, experienced and fit enough to execute their role.
A good CO will know when to let junior officers off the leash and drive his toy, a bad one will either be a control freak or play fast and loose with the risks. Sometimes good ones are unlucky, as per the chap I mentioned.
My first bridge watch unsupervised was the morning watch in the Indian Ocean, miles away from any danger and whilst I felt like johnny big balls having conduct of a 4000 tonne ship, he knew I was highly unlikely to bump into a rock and wake 300 sailors up with an emergency pipe. We were leading 4 other ships line astern so as long as I kept her on track for 4 hours I couldn’t really f
k it up without being deliberately special.As for sleep, The CO will write instructions in the Sea Order Book for when they must be called by the officer of the watch and will always qualify their instructions by saying ‘if in doubt, wake me...’ The COs appetite for risk will dictate when these wake up calls will take place (ie how close does another ship need to get before the OOW gets approval for a certain course of action) - you’d not find a good CO kipping whilst transiting the Straits of Hormuz or Dover though...
Thanks for the replies, they’re really interesting.
I suppose I’m trying to relate it to commanding an aircraft where you might be at the toilet or asleep outside the flight deck in a bunk during a long flight when there’s multi crew.
You might be the captain and have two qualified and competent pilots doing the flying but something unpredictable could happen like a sudden depressurisation or an upset due to turbulence or unseen weather etc
Obviously there’s key phases of the flight where the captain ought to be there like flying over some high ground or if there’s some tricky procedure to be followed but it’s actually a legal requirement on a long flight that he/she takes rest often outside the flightdeck.
After something sudden requiring immediate action like a depressurisation or an engine failure or some unusual attitude recovery, there simply isn’t enough time to get back into the flight deck and you would likely be unconscious anyway after a depressurisation.
Although you’re the captain, you have to rely on others to be able to do their job in your absence. Depending on the makeup of the crew, different airlines have different procedures but often one of the more junior pilots will be the nominated captain while the actual commander is resting,
I suppose on a ship, you have more time to get the captain if he’s not there and less chance of sudden events happening which would require his presence?
I suppose I’m trying to relate it to commanding an aircraft where you might be at the toilet or asleep outside the flight deck in a bunk during a long flight when there’s multi crew.
You might be the captain and have two qualified and competent pilots doing the flying but something unpredictable could happen like a sudden depressurisation or an upset due to turbulence or unseen weather etc
Obviously there’s key phases of the flight where the captain ought to be there like flying over some high ground or if there’s some tricky procedure to be followed but it’s actually a legal requirement on a long flight that he/she takes rest often outside the flightdeck.
After something sudden requiring immediate action like a depressurisation or an engine failure or some unusual attitude recovery, there simply isn’t enough time to get back into the flight deck and you would likely be unconscious anyway after a depressurisation.
Although you’re the captain, you have to rely on others to be able to do their job in your absence. Depending on the makeup of the crew, different airlines have different procedures but often one of the more junior pilots will be the nominated captain while the actual commander is resting,
I suppose on a ship, you have more time to get the captain if he’s not there and less chance of sudden events happening which would require his presence?
You do, and as donuts said in orders there will be stipulation when you wake the old man up, how close other ships, increase in threat or things like that.
Same as aircraft, when things go wrong they go very quickly, sometimes you just get on with it and hope it's not brown and smelly at the end.
If it is, well its either a board or court martial.
Same as aircraft, when things go wrong they go very quickly, sometimes you just get on with it and hope it's not brown and smelly at the end.
If it is, well its either a board or court martial.
El stovey said:
I suppose I’m trying to relate it to commanding an aircraft where you might be at the toilet or asleep outside the flight deck in a bunk during a long flight when there’s multi crew.
To be fair, if you run aground in an aircraft its usually something more major than a navigation mistake.... El stovey said:
Presumably the RN has decided that a navigator (or whoever) is competent to hold that rank and perform the associated tasks?
I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
Google “HMS Nottingham grounding” I get that if the navigator says I’m really knackered and the captain says tough you’re in charge of steering and I’m off for a kip then it’s his fault but presumably that’s not what happens?
There must be occasions where the captain is asleep and competent people make mistakes? Perhaps you only run aground near the shore or known areas of danger and the captain is always expected to be there alert during those phases of the ‘journey’?
swanny71 said:
Google “HMS Nottingham grounding”
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/10985/response/28538/attach/3/BOI%20Grounding%20of%20HMS%20NOTTINGHAM%202002.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1Official report makes for a sobering read, especially para 59 on page 12..
"...there were 4 Officers on the bridge of HMS NOTTINGHAM in the time leading up to the grounding, including the Officer with conduct and the Officer trusted with the navigation of the ship. Neither the Executive Officer, Navigating Officer, nor the Officer of the Watch took any interest in the navigation of the ship for 65 minutes before the grounding.."
In those conditions and that proximity to hazards, IIRC a decent bridge team would be taking position fixes at least every 6 minutes, not once an hour.
donutsina911 said:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/10985/respo...
Official report makes for a sobering read, especially para 59 on page 12..
"...there were 4 Officers on the bridge of HMS NOTTINGHAM in the time leading up to the grounding, including the Officer with conduct and the Officer trusted with the navigation of the ship. Neither the Executive Officer, Navigating Officer, nor the Officer of the Watch took any interest in the navigation of the ship for 65 minutes before the grounding.."
In those conditions and that proximity to hazards, IIRC a decent bridge team would be taking position fixes at least every 6 minutes, not once an hour.
When I started this thread, I had completely forgotten that in 2003/4 i spent a year working as a civilian for the Royal Navy and for some of that year, shared an office with Cdr Richard Farringdon. He was candid about what had happened, on the receiving end of the occasional ribbing, it was clear that he wasn't going to drive a boat again.Official report makes for a sobering read, especially para 59 on page 12..
"...there were 4 Officers on the bridge of HMS NOTTINGHAM in the time leading up to the grounding, including the Officer with conduct and the Officer trusted with the navigation of the ship. Neither the Executive Officer, Navigating Officer, nor the Officer of the Watch took any interest in the navigation of the ship for 65 minutes before the grounding.."
In those conditions and that proximity to hazards, IIRC a decent bridge team would be taking position fixes at least every 6 minutes, not once an hour.
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