Any truth in the Belgian F-16 story?
Discussion
There would have to have been a HUGE amount go wrong for it to happen, including quite a few deliberate actions by the maintenance crew, for this to happen but it is possible. I did 20+ years as a RAF engineer working fast jets etc so I have some experience on aircraft weapon safety plus I looked up a few M61A1 cannon specifics online but just to give you an idea of how much safety is involved -
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
- The gun has a physical pin which needs removing before the gun can fire. This physical item locks the breach (stops it loading) and breaks the electrical firing circuit.
- The gun is electrically fired so it has an electrical plug which is disconnected on the ground preventing accidental firing and the gun is RF protected so stray RF energy can't set off any rounds.
- The gun breach is loaded by a hydraulic system which spins the loading mechanism. This system is isolated on the ground to prevent accidental loading.
- The SMS (stores management system) is a computer which controls all weapons. This prevents firing on the ground and can only be over-ridden using physical tools, normally used for testing the System.
- There are Two separate switches which control the arming of any weapons system, a third separate switch which "powers" the gun and a fourth separate switch which actually fires the gun - all of these need moved PLUS the SMS above placed in testing mode with physical tools and all 3 safety devices removed before the gun can be fired on the ground.
- Any aircraft having maintenance done to the weapons system has to have ALL ordinance, including canon shells, removed before ANY testing can be carried out and a physical check of the aircraft weapon systems carried out by the engineers before work starts.
- Any aircraft having general maintenance done MUST have all the weapons safety equipment fitted before anyone can work on the aircraft (pins fitted, plugs removed etc), again checked by the guys working on it.
- Any aircraft with live "forward firing" ordinance MUST be pointed away from any other aircraft or structure, usually on specially designated parking bays which are mapped out to avoid hitting anything should something go wrong.
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
Edited by IanH755 on Saturday 13th October 06:30
IanH755 said:
There would have to have been a HUGE amount go wrong for it to happen, including quite a few deliberate actions by the maintenance crew, for this to happen but it is possible. I did 20+ years as a RAF engineer working fast jets etc so I have some experience on aircraft weapon safety plus I looked up a few M61A1 cannon specifics online but just to give you an idea of how much safety is involved -
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
Thanks for an informative post. I’m now wondering how the gun ever actually fires in a combat situation what with all the plugs and pins and switches and computers that have got to be in or out off or on up or down etc- The gun has a physical pin which needs removing before the gun can fire. This physical item locks the breach (stops it loading) and breaks the electrical firing circuit.
- The gun is electrically fired so it has an electrical plug which is disconnected on the ground preventing accidental firing and the gun is RF protected so stray RF energy can't set off any rounds.
- The gun breach is loaded by a hydraulic system which spins the loading mechanism. This system is isolated on the ground to prevent accidental loading.
- The SMS (stores management system) is a computer which controls all weapons. This prevents firing on the ground and can only be over-ridden using physical tools, normally used for testing the System.
- There are Two separate switches which control the arming of any weapons system, a third separate switch which "powers" the gun and a fourth separate switch which actually fires the gun - all of these need moved PLUS the SMS above placed in testing mode with physical tools and all 3 safety devices removed before the gun can be fired on the ground.
- Any aircraft having maintenance done to the weapons system has to have ALL ordinance, including canon shells, removed before ANY testing can be carried out and a physical check of the aircraft weapon systems carried out by the engineers before work starts.
- Any aircraft having general maintenance done MUST have all the weapons safety equipment fitted before anyone can work on the aircraft (pins fitted, plugs removed etc), again checked by the guys working on it.
- Any aircraft with live "forward firing" ordinance MUST be pointed away from any other aircraft or structure, usually on specially designated parking bays which are mapped out to avoid hitting anything should something go wrong.
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
Edited by IanH755 on Saturday 13th October 06:30
Elroy Blue said:
Live sidewinders were fired film a Harrier undergoing maintenance in the Falklands years back. I think some personnel were killed. So it happens despite precautions
I dare say in a combat situation it’s about turning the aircraft around quickly and some procedures may get ignored. Only guessing. Dare say there is some board of inquiry report on it somewhere. MikeStroud said:
Thanks for an informative post. I’m now wondering how the gun ever actually fires in a combat situation what with all the plugs and pins and switches and computers that have got to be in or out off or on up or down etc
Happily the weapons system is designed to very easy to use once flying, it's only the ground where there's eleventy billion safety bits. In the air there's just the 4 cockpit switches before you are live.
What usually happens on the ground is that most of the safety parts are removed/connected etc when the pilot arrives with the Pilot removing the pins themselves as the plane is now their responsibility and a few final safety bits are removed at the end of the runway just before take-off by a separate safety crew.
IanH755 said:
There would have to have been a HUGE amount go wrong for it to happen, including quite a few deliberate actions by the maintenance crew, for this to happen but it is possible. I did 20+ years as a RAF engineer working fast jets etc so I have some experience on aircraft weapon safety plus I looked up a few M61A1 cannon specifics online but just to give you an idea of how much safety is involved -
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
Used to work Tornado Gr1/4. Pretty much spot on from my experience of working around armed aircraft. - The gun has a physical pin which needs removing before the gun can fire. This physical item locks the breach (stops it loading) and breaks the electrical firing circuit.
- The gun is electrically fired so it has an electrical plug which is disconnected on the ground preventing accidental firing and the gun is RF protected so stray RF energy can't set off any rounds.
- The gun breach is loaded by a hydraulic system which spins the loading mechanism. This system is isolated on the ground to prevent accidental loading.
- The SMS (stores management system) is a computer which controls all weapons. This prevents firing on the ground and can only be over-ridden using physical tools, normally used for testing the System.
- There are Two separate switches which control the arming of any weapons system, a third separate switch which "powers" the gun and a fourth separate switch which actually fires the gun - all of these need moved PLUS the SMS above placed in testing mode with physical tools and all 3 safety devices removed before the gun can be fired on the ground.
- Any aircraft having maintenance done to the weapons system has to have ALL ordinance, including canon shells, removed before ANY testing can be carried out and a physical check of the aircraft weapon systems carried out by the engineers before work starts.
- Any aircraft having general maintenance done MUST have all the weapons safety equipment fitted before anyone can work on the aircraft (pins fitted, plugs removed etc), again checked by the guys working on it.
- Any aircraft with live "forward firing" ordinance MUST be pointed away from any other aircraft or structure, usually on specially designated parking bays which are mapped out to avoid hitting anything should something go wrong.
The only way I could see it happening in the way described (tech on A/C and loaded gun fires and hits another plane) is if the aircraft was undergoing weapons testing but someone forgot to check the "magazine" was empty before which would a massive failing on the engineers and the managements part. Alternatively, as the rounds themselves are electrically fired, a round still in the magazine and NOT in the gun fired for some reason once power was applied, even though the magazine is shielded against an stray electrical inputs.
Edited by IanH755 on Saturday 13th October 06:30
The last point about all armed aircraft pointing to safe area is the final point.
No way this happened. Unless it was on purpose.
Eric Mc said:
A major disaster was caused to the USS Forrestal during the Vietnam War when a missile was launched by an aircraft on the carrier deck.
Mistakes happen.
True very true, thankfully safety has improved and as someone mentioned earlier “in war the rule book often goes out the window”, what we can do in theatre at war and what we can do at home base is fastly different. Mistakes happen.
Eric Mc said:
Look what happened with that poor Red Arrows pilot and his ejector seat.
I'm afraid that was almost bound to happen, just as the BAe nav being dropped out of the inverted Tornado from Marham was bound to happen. The British forces seem to want to live in their own little bubble, believing they're a cut above the rest with aircraft maintenance.
They're not.
And the bubble is being perpetuated by the MAA (set up in response to the criminal Nimrod incident) being manned by chums of serving aircrews and engineers.
What will it take, ffs?
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