777 Auto land into São Paulo this morning
Discussion
I’m in São Paulo for three days working having flown out BA overnight last night (Landing Saturday 6:35am local, now written 20:31 local so you lot will no doubt all be in bed with the time difference!)
Had a good flight thankfully with a bed and after watching aircraft leaving Heathrow from the comfort of the lounge I settled into my seat, had a pretty good steak, drank a load more and then had 7 hours good sleep
Roll on 12 hours after we left Heathrow and we start our approach and we’ve been warned by the crew it’s foggy but nothing to worry about.
I can’t tell you at what point above the ground the member of the crew landing (1st Officer I believe) decided to go around but bloody hell the 777 goes up in a situation like that quite literally like a scalded cat. I was sat facing the rear of the aircraft by an engine and I was also amazed how quiet it was, we were like a home-sick angel
After a few minutes we levelled out and having turned slightly I could see our trail in the fog I’m guessing with the fog being moved from the wing vortexes I guess - sadly I couldn’t get a picture quick enough but it was an interesting sight.
Now bird pilot talks to us (who also happens to be the sister of the 1st Officer, which I knew because my BA captain friend arranged for a flight deck visit prior to take off which was 10 good minutes of my day!) and she tells us we will have to auto land, the aircraft is capable of doing this so please don’t worry however bear with them whilst they reconfigure the aircraft and then start a different approach.
After about 10 minutes off we go down again and descend into the thick fog.
I made eye contact with the ground about 10-20 seconds before the wheels touched and my god, what a landing, an absolute creamer, the most gentle landing ever.
Talk about smooth and controlled, I’d go so far as to suggest it was one of the best landings I can remover for a long time.
I Know Dame Emma Irony protestor in London hates fossil fuels being used to transport us (but obviously not her) around but you have to hand it to these aircraft manufacturers, when they get it right it’s mighty impressive.
It would be interesting to hear from any of our resident pilots how this all happens and is it black magic or actually quite simple if you know what buttons to press?
However that said, roll on Tuesday when I get back home!
Had a good flight thankfully with a bed and after watching aircraft leaving Heathrow from the comfort of the lounge I settled into my seat, had a pretty good steak, drank a load more and then had 7 hours good sleep
Roll on 12 hours after we left Heathrow and we start our approach and we’ve been warned by the crew it’s foggy but nothing to worry about.
I can’t tell you at what point above the ground the member of the crew landing (1st Officer I believe) decided to go around but bloody hell the 777 goes up in a situation like that quite literally like a scalded cat. I was sat facing the rear of the aircraft by an engine and I was also amazed how quiet it was, we were like a home-sick angel
After a few minutes we levelled out and having turned slightly I could see our trail in the fog I’m guessing with the fog being moved from the wing vortexes I guess - sadly I couldn’t get a picture quick enough but it was an interesting sight.
Now bird pilot talks to us (who also happens to be the sister of the 1st Officer, which I knew because my BA captain friend arranged for a flight deck visit prior to take off which was 10 good minutes of my day!) and she tells us we will have to auto land, the aircraft is capable of doing this so please don’t worry however bear with them whilst they reconfigure the aircraft and then start a different approach.
After about 10 minutes off we go down again and descend into the thick fog.
I made eye contact with the ground about 10-20 seconds before the wheels touched and my god, what a landing, an absolute creamer, the most gentle landing ever.
Talk about smooth and controlled, I’d go so far as to suggest it was one of the best landings I can remover for a long time.
I Know Dame Emma Irony protestor in London hates fossil fuels being used to transport us (but obviously not her) around but you have to hand it to these aircraft manufacturers, when they get it right it’s mighty impressive.
It would be interesting to hear from any of our resident pilots how this all happens and is it black magic or actually quite simple if you know what buttons to press?
However that said, roll on Tuesday when I get back home!
Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 21st April 00:31
HoHoHo said:
I’m in São Paulo for three days working having flown out BA overnight last night (Landing Saturday 6:35am local, now written 20:31 local so you lot will no doubt all be in bed with the time difference!)
Had a good flight thankfully with a bed and after watching aircraft leaving Heathrow from the comfort of the lounge I settled into my seat, had a pretty good steak, drank a load more and then had 7 hours good sleep
Roll on 12 hours after we left Heathrow and we start our approach and we’ve been warned by the crew it’s foggy but nothing to worry about.
I can’t tell you at what point above the ground the member of the crew landing (1st Officer I believe) decided to go around but bloody hell the 777 goes up in a situation like that quite literally like a scalded cat. I was sat facing the rear of the aircraft by an engine and I was also amazed how quiet it was, we were like a home-sick angel
After a few minutes we levelled out and having turned slightly I could see our trail in the fog I’m guessing with the fog being moved from the wing vortexes I guess - sadly I couldn’t get a picture quick enough but it was an interesting sight.
Now bird pilot talks to us (who also happens to be the sister of the 1st Officer, which I knew because my BA captain friend arranged for a flight deck visit prior to take off which was 10 good minutes of my day!) and she tells us we will have to auto land, the aircraft is capable of doing this so please don’t worry however bear with them whilst they reconfigure the aircraft and then start a different approach.
After about 10 minutes off we go down again and descend into the thick fog.
I made eye contact with the ground about 10-20 seconds before the wheels touched and my god, what a landing, an absolute creamer, the most gentle landing ever.
Talk about smooth and controlled, I’d go so far as to suggest it was one of the best landings I can remover for a long time.
I Know Dame Emma Irony protestor in London hates fossil fuels being used to transport us (but obviously not her) around but you have to hand it to these aircraft manufacturers, when they get it right it’s mighty impressive.
It would be interesting to hear from any of our resident pilots how this all happens and is it black magic or actually quite simple if you know what buttons to press?
However that said, roll on Tuesday when I get back home!
What would you like to know? Had a good flight thankfully with a bed and after watching aircraft leaving Heathrow from the comfort of the lounge I settled into my seat, had a pretty good steak, drank a load more and then had 7 hours good sleep
Roll on 12 hours after we left Heathrow and we start our approach and we’ve been warned by the crew it’s foggy but nothing to worry about.
I can’t tell you at what point above the ground the member of the crew landing (1st Officer I believe) decided to go around but bloody hell the 777 goes up in a situation like that quite literally like a scalded cat. I was sat facing the rear of the aircraft by an engine and I was also amazed how quiet it was, we were like a home-sick angel
After a few minutes we levelled out and having turned slightly I could see our trail in the fog I’m guessing with the fog being moved from the wing vortexes I guess - sadly I couldn’t get a picture quick enough but it was an interesting sight.
Now bird pilot talks to us (who also happens to be the sister of the 1st Officer, which I knew because my BA captain friend arranged for a flight deck visit prior to take off which was 10 good minutes of my day!) and she tells us we will have to auto land, the aircraft is capable of doing this so please don’t worry however bear with them whilst they reconfigure the aircraft and then start a different approach.
After about 10 minutes off we go down again and descend into the thick fog.
I made eye contact with the ground about 10-20 seconds before the wheels touched and my god, what a landing, an absolute creamer, the most gentle landing ever.
Talk about smooth and controlled, I’d go so far as to suggest it was one of the best landings I can remover for a long time.
I Know Dame Emma Irony protestor in London hates fossil fuels being used to transport us (but obviously not her) around but you have to hand it to these aircraft manufacturers, when they get it right it’s mighty impressive.
It would be interesting to hear from any of our resident pilots how this all happens and is it black magic or actually quite simple if you know what buttons to press?
However that said, roll on Tuesday when I get back home!
Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 21st April 00:31
Its serious business, of course, but it’s all very simple from the pilot’s perspective - but essentially we’re ensuring that criteria are met on the aircraft (with regard to systems), and that the weather remains within limits.
Auto land in low visibility operations has various ‘levels’, from needing to see the runway from about 100 feet with 350m forward visibility, right down to zero feet and 75m visibility (not that the jet knows the difference). So you’re keeping track of those, and a close eye on the aircraft capabilities, which also limit the ‘level’ of autoland.
As far as the landings go - I’ve found them to be some of the best ever, and some of the worst ever (unlike mine which are obviously perfect all the time) What it will ensure, is that it will always dump you down at the correct spot - so if it needs to be slightly more firm to do so, then it will. On the 777 I found the control movements ‘reassuringly positive’ because it was nice to know what the aircraft is doing. On the A350 it appears more subtle/finessed. It’s a beautiful thing in a way, but not in others.
As for button pushing - it’s pretty much just setting up an instrument landing system approach (the most common type of approach) and not disconnecting the autopilot!
Let me know if you want further info!
croyde said:
Can the system deal with a sudden crosswind or is the pilot ready to take over?
The aircraft system is latched on to two radio beams that come from the runway, so all the aircraft does is detect a displacement from this ‘radio road’ and respond accordingly. Being computers, they can respond quicker than we can, as they detect the error before we do - although you have to be ready, because their response isn’t appropriate 100% of the time (though more of an issue with autothrottle than autopilot). That said, during the late stages of the approach/flare, if the aircraft is responding poorly, you’re better off going-around and trying again than wrestling with it close to the ground.
Edited by Testaburger on Sunday 21st April 06:20
Eric Mc said:
The original autoland system was pioneered by Hawker Siddeley and BEA with the Trident 1. The first test autoland with a commercial airliner was in 1964 - although it took around a decade before the system was fully cleared for normal airline use.
My father was one of the first three captains to be cleared for autoland. These were only performed in perfect weather into LHR. He was also required to ask the permission of the crew who in turn had to look in the 'Book' to confirm his authority to do the landing.He said they were the scariest landings to perform as the system was continually checking all its readings and function but if it didn't like the results would just switch itself off leaving the pilot to deal with it. The result was that he had to be super aware of where and what they were doing in case it switched off.
Steve
Steve_D said:
My father was one of the first three captains to be cleared for autoland. These were only performed in perfect weather into LHR. He was also required to ask the permission of the crew who in turn had to look in the 'Book' to confirm his authority to do the landing.
He said they were the scariest landings to perform as the system was continually checking all its readings and function but if it didn't like the results would just switch itself off leaving the pilot to deal with it. The result was that he had to be super aware of where and what they were doing in case it switched off.
Steve
Must have been pretty intense back then!He said they were the scariest landings to perform as the system was continually checking all its readings and function but if it didn't like the results would just switch itself off leaving the pilot to deal with it. The result was that he had to be super aware of where and what they were doing in case it switched off.
Steve
Regarding your last paragraph, that logic is largely the same. There’s more redundancy now, so during system self-checking, under normal circumstances, a most system failures won’t result in the autopilot dropping out.
If you’re already one level down (known as fail-passive), then a system failure will cause the autopilot to drop out, and the aircraft will essentially carry on true trajectory it was on.
What AC was your dad on at this point?
I believe that it was the Tristar that really refined autoland systems. They pioneered the landing roll-out, too. Nothing like a military research specialist during the Cold War to develop great aerospace technology!
Thanks for the replies (@tetstaburger of course) and being a child of the 60’s and having flown from a very young age I’m sure I may have had one or two previously.
It’s a bit like a good card trick, you’ve seen it before but you still say wow once it’s done in front of your eyes again.
Quick questions:
How accurate is the system, will the aircraft literally land on the big blocks and in the centre of the runway every time?
I’m sure the crew monitor the aircraft throughout the auto land but do you still sit there with hands gently on the throttles and stick letting the aircraft do it’s thing but ready at any second to take control, and if so at what point would you and how, is it a simple press of a button by your thumb on the yoke?
Oh, and bird pilot was the good looking sensible one out of the three on my flight
I’ve added two photos being from the video I took as we landed, the second about 5-10 seconds before we touched down.
I still think it’s clever stuff
It’s a bit like a good card trick, you’ve seen it before but you still say wow once it’s done in front of your eyes again.
Quick questions:
How accurate is the system, will the aircraft literally land on the big blocks and in the centre of the runway every time?
I’m sure the crew monitor the aircraft throughout the auto land but do you still sit there with hands gently on the throttles and stick letting the aircraft do it’s thing but ready at any second to take control, and if so at what point would you and how, is it a simple press of a button by your thumb on the yoke?
Oh, and bird pilot was the good looking sensible one out of the three on my flight
I’ve added two photos being from the video I took as we landed, the second about 5-10 seconds before we touched down.
I still think it’s clever stuff
Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 21st April 13:44
When i was a nipper in the early 1980's we used to fly to Guernsey in the old Fokker F-27. And back then there was no screen of any kind between the cabin and the cockpit, so you could see the pilots 'pulling levers'.
On one trip, we approached on a beautifully clear and sunny day, to find Guernsey completely bound in thin but dense layer of sea fog, un-abashed , the pilots lined up and put down, a perfect tyre-kissing let down right on the runway threshold which appeared less than a second before the wheels touched. Ground visibility was probably sub 100m. My dad, who had looked a bit worried throughout the landing (realising the danger, which my 10 year old self simply didn't see) promptly announced "Wow, these autoland systems are really good now aren't they" to which a stewardess, sat just in front of us in her jump seat quipped "oh, there's no autoland on this plane, they just line up with the roofs of certain green houses that stick up through the fog"............ ;-)
On one trip, we approached on a beautifully clear and sunny day, to find Guernsey completely bound in thin but dense layer of sea fog, un-abashed , the pilots lined up and put down, a perfect tyre-kissing let down right on the runway threshold which appeared less than a second before the wheels touched. Ground visibility was probably sub 100m. My dad, who had looked a bit worried throughout the landing (realising the danger, which my 10 year old self simply didn't see) promptly announced "Wow, these autoland systems are really good now aren't they" to which a stewardess, sat just in front of us in her jump seat quipped "oh, there's no autoland on this plane, they just line up with the roofs of certain green houses that stick up through the fog"............ ;-)
HoHoHo said:
Thanks for the replies (@tetstaburger of course) and being a child of the 60’s and having flown from a very young age I’m sure I may have had one or two previously.
It’s a bit like a good card trick, you’ve seen it before but you still say wow once it’s done in front of your eyes again.
Quick questions:
How accurate is the system, will the aircraft literally land on the big blocks and in the centre of the runway every time?
I’m sure the crew monitor the aircraft throughout the auto land but do you still sit there with hands gently on the throttles and stick letting the aircraft do it’s thing but ready at any second to take control, and if so at what point would you and how, is it a simple press of a button by your thumb on the yoke?
Oh, and bird pilot was the good looking sensible one out of the three on my flight
I’ve added two photos being from the video I took as we landed, the second about 5-10 seconds before we touched down.
I still think it’s clever stuff
You’re most welcome.It’s a bit like a good card trick, you’ve seen it before but you still say wow once it’s done in front of your eyes again.
Quick questions:
How accurate is the system, will the aircraft literally land on the big blocks and in the centre of the runway every time?
I’m sure the crew monitor the aircraft throughout the auto land but do you still sit there with hands gently on the throttles and stick letting the aircraft do it’s thing but ready at any second to take control, and if so at what point would you and how, is it a simple press of a button by your thumb on the yoke?
Oh, and bird pilot was the good looking sensible one out of the three on my flight
I’ve added two photos being from the video I took as we landed, the second about 5-10 seconds before we touched down.
I still think it’s clever stuff
Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 21st April 13:44
As for monitoring - well, we’re monitoring the same displays for the approach as if we were flying it. If the aircraft deviates, then we know what to expect in response. What the aircraft doesn’t know is that sometimes the signal it is following can stray (causes by obstruction by the preceding aircraft, or aircraft/vehicles on the ground. Of course, in pea soup, that’s difficult for us to notice, too.
During the landing, again, we’re watching for certain autopilot modes to engage; namely the flare mode (for touchdown), idle thrust, and rollout (down the runway).
The autopilot disconnection buttons are instinctively placed - on a Boeing, they’re by your thumb on the yolk, and on an Airbus they’re by your thumb on the stick. For the autothrust system, they’re on the side of the thrust levers.
For a go-around, on a Boeing, the TO/GA (takeoff/go-around) switches are buttons on the front of the thrust levers, where your fingertips loiter. On an Airbus, TOGA is activated when you push the thrust levers fully forward.
In either case, the aircraft systems know what is required, so the engines spool up and the aircraft guidance mode enters the go around phase to take you safely away from the ground and to follow the published missed-approach path.
Hope this helps!
My ex BiL worked at Cranwell back in the early70's. Didn't get much out of him on what he did, but one evening he came home with this tale
He didn't get much air time, but was offered a flight on a Cessna !72 IIRC and jumped at the chance the pilot was a BA Trident chappie up there on training ( from what he let on there were autoland simulators on site)
Anyway he had a go with the stck and said pilot was coming in to land when he jut let go of everything and say back, yhe Cessna droppeed like a stone from 100ft and bunny hopped 2/3 doen the runway before deciding ground was better than air
Pilot turns to him am apologies as 'as he put it' i went into autopilot as i do on the Tridents.
He didn't get much air time, but was offered a flight on a Cessna !72 IIRC and jumped at the chance the pilot was a BA Trident chappie up there on training ( from what he let on there were autoland simulators on site)
Anyway he had a go with the stck and said pilot was coming in to land when he jut let go of everything and say back, yhe Cessna droppeed like a stone from 100ft and bunny hopped 2/3 doen the runway before deciding ground was better than air
Pilot turns to him am apologies as 'as he put it' i went into autopilot as i do on the Tridents.
Testaburger said:
You’re most welcome.
As for monitoring - well, we’re monitoring the same displays for the approach as if we were flying it. If the aircraft deviates, then we know what to expect in response. What the aircraft doesn’t know is that sometimes the signal it is following can stray (causes by obstruction by the preceding aircraft, or aircraft/vehicles on the ground. Of course, in pea soup, that’s difficult for us to notice, too.
During the landing, again, we’re watching for certain autopilot modes to engage; namely the flare mode (for touchdown), idle thrust, and rollout (down the runway).
The autopilot disconnection buttons are instinctively placed - on a Boeing, they’re by your thumb on the yolk, and on an Airbus they’re by your thumb on the stick. For the autothrust system, they’re on the side of the thrust levers.
For a go-around, on a Boeing, the TO/GA (takeoff/go-around) switches are buttons on the front of the thrust levers, where your fingertips loiter. On an Airbus, TOGA is activated when you push the thrust levers fully forward.
In either case, the aircraft systems know what is required, so the engines spool up and the aircraft guidance mode enters the go around phase to take you safely away from the ground and to follow the published missed-approach path.
Hope this helps!
Interesting stuff!As for monitoring - well, we’re monitoring the same displays for the approach as if we were flying it. If the aircraft deviates, then we know what to expect in response. What the aircraft doesn’t know is that sometimes the signal it is following can stray (causes by obstruction by the preceding aircraft, or aircraft/vehicles on the ground. Of course, in pea soup, that’s difficult for us to notice, too.
During the landing, again, we’re watching for certain autopilot modes to engage; namely the flare mode (for touchdown), idle thrust, and rollout (down the runway).
The autopilot disconnection buttons are instinctively placed - on a Boeing, they’re by your thumb on the yolk, and on an Airbus they’re by your thumb on the stick. For the autothrust system, they’re on the side of the thrust levers.
For a go-around, on a Boeing, the TO/GA (takeoff/go-around) switches are buttons on the front of the thrust levers, where your fingertips loiter. On an Airbus, TOGA is activated when you push the thrust levers fully forward.
In either case, the aircraft systems know what is required, so the engines spool up and the aircraft guidance mode enters the go around phase to take you safely away from the ground and to follow the published missed-approach path.
Hope this helps!
So is the TOGO button is also programmed so the moment you hit it (or push the throttles forward) the aircraft climbs in a predetermined attitude with predetermined thrust to a predetermined altitude and you don’t have to do an awful lot until it levels out (sorry, lots of predetermined in that sentence!)?
A modern airliner at the end of a long haul trip with a low fuel load does go surprisingly well when fully lit!
I’ve been on a few auto lands before. Wasn’t announced by the flight crew but it was obvious. Thick fog, large airport as destination, or diverted to because of fog at the original destination as many smaller airports don’t have the necessary ground equipment for auto land.
The overarching feeling is how constant and smooth the rate of decent and how little engine throttle varies compared to normal manual control. And the aileron movement seems much more finessed and higher in frequency. Also the actual landing has always been ultra smooth, with a noticeably longer flare, and barely a bump on touchdown of the main gear, or the nose gear, which is set down much more gently.
I don’t think I’ve ever experienced landings as smooth done manually, which vary from a good normal and square bump down, to occasional Captain Kangaroo specials or the guy’s trying to hit a bullseye on the runway.
I’ve been on a few auto lands before. Wasn’t announced by the flight crew but it was obvious. Thick fog, large airport as destination, or diverted to because of fog at the original destination as many smaller airports don’t have the necessary ground equipment for auto land.
The overarching feeling is how constant and smooth the rate of decent and how little engine throttle varies compared to normal manual control. And the aileron movement seems much more finessed and higher in frequency. Also the actual landing has always been ultra smooth, with a noticeably longer flare, and barely a bump on touchdown of the main gear, or the nose gear, which is set down much more gently.
I don’t think I’ve ever experienced landings as smooth done manually, which vary from a good normal and square bump down, to occasional Captain Kangaroo specials or the guy’s trying to hit a bullseye on the runway.
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