Farnborough 1962

[V41LEY]

The best show ever ?
Just watched the footage on YT in colour.
Iconic British machinery.

[Eric Mc]

How many of them were major commercial successes?

[V41LEY]

I guess none of them in truth (although we sold a few Harriers and Lightenings around the world) but from a ‘show’ perspective what a display of what we could do back then.

[Tony1963]

V41LEY said:

I guess none of them in truth (although we sold a few Harriers and Lightenings around the world) but from a ‘show’ perspective what a display of what we could do back then.

We didn’t sell a single Lightening, and that’s because there’s no such aircraft.

[The Mad Monk]

Tony1963 said:

V41LEY said:

I guess none of them in truth (although we sold a few Harriers and Lightenings around the world) but from a ‘show’ perspective what a display of what we could do back then.

We didn’t sell a single Lightening, and that’s because there’s no such aircraft.

Excellent!

One for the speeling thread?

[2xChevrons]

V41LEY said:

I guess none of them in truth (although we sold a few Harriers and Lightenings around the world) but from a ‘show’ perspective what a display of what we could do back then.

Wasn't the DH.125 a debut at the '62 show? That can only be described as a solid commercial success, albeit mostly in the hands of American rights-owners. And, now I think of it, I think the BAC 1-11 was also new in '62, even if the order books had opened the year before. While a massive missed opportunity, it still performed well commercially.

[Eric Mc]

There were certainly some successes but quite a few types were either one offs or sold in small numbers.

[2xChevrons]

Eric Mc said:

There were certainly some successes but quite a few types were either one offs or sold in small numbers.

The list of undeniable commercial successes for British aviation is appallingly sparse given how many white elephants, botched plans, missed opportunities and downright no-hopers we churned out over the years.

Civil-wise, it's BAC 1-11, DH.125, Avro 748, H-P Jetstream, BAe146? B-N Islander of course. Any more?

Military: Canberra, Vampire, Hunter, Gnat, Harrier, Hawk?

[Eric Mc]

The Meteor had good overseas sales too.

[Dr Jekyll]

2xChevrons said:

The list of undeniable commercial successes for British aviation is appallingly sparse given how many white elephants, botched plans, missed opportunities and downright no-hopers we churned out over the years.

Civil-wise, it's BAC 1-11, DH.125, Avro 748, H-P Jetstream, BAe146? B-N Islander of course. Any more?

Military: Canberra, Vampire, Hunter, Gnat, Harrier, Hawk?

Bulldog, Provost/Strikemaster, Lynx?

[Eric Mc]

The Bulldog and Lynx are both a few years after 1962. Although the Bulldog had some modest overseas success, it wan’t until after the company that had originally designed it had gone bust and the production jigs had been handed over to the government aided Scottish Aviation Ltd.

[FourWheelDrift]

Dr Jekyll said:

2xChevrons said:

The list of undeniable commercial successes for British aviation is appallingly sparse given how many white elephants, botched plans, missed opportunities and downright no-hopers we churned out over the years.

Civil-wise, it's BAC 1-11, DH.125, Avro 748, H-P Jetstream, BAe146? B-N Islander of course. Any more?

Military: Canberra, Vampire, Hunter, Gnat, Harrier, Hawk?

Bulldog, Provost/Strikemaster, Lynx?

Vickers Viscount. Operators - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vickers_Visc...

[2xChevrons]

Dr Jekyll said:

Bulldog, Provost/Strikemaster, Lynx?

Eric Mc said:

The Bulldog and Lynx are both a few years after 1962. Although the Bulldog had some modest overseas success, it wan’t until after the company that had originally designed it had gone bust and the production jigs had been handed over to the government aided Scottish Aviation Ltd.

FourWheelDrift said:

Vickers Viscount. Operators - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vickers_Visc...

I wasn't going for 'class of '62' only - I was thinking of the entire post-war period until the end of the RJ project which was, what, 2001/2002?

I had thought of the Bulldog but didn't realise that it attracted quite as many export orders as it did - I thought it only went to Sweden. Still, as Eric Mc said, the original manufacturer collapsed and it had to be rescued by the government. Take the RAF orders out of the picture and would it have been commercially viable or successful? Aside from the Swedish order it was handfuls of aircraft here and there .

The Meteor is a good shout and so is the Provost/Strikemaster. The Viscount is very obvious in retrospect - dunno how it slipped my mind! I wasn't even thinking of helicopters, but I'm pretty sure the Lynx is the only one that really stands on its own two feet/skids commercially, unless you count the Westland version of the Sea King as a 'British' aircraft.

I think you really have to discount almost anything that was bought purely by the British military or BOAC/BEA, since it was something of a 'closed shop' between government, manufacturer and customer. The VC10 is a fantastic - yet badly-conceived - aircraft but it only (and barely) broke even for Vickers because the government forced a reluctant BOAC to buy the required amount. The Trident was essentially tailor-made for BEA - to specifications which completely hobbled it to a wider commercial market. And of course BEA then spent the next decade trying to get HS to develop the Trident back to a pale imitation of the original design while the B727 got it right from the start. Take the BEA orders out and the Trident barely sold anything until the late-in-the-day China deal. Stuff like the Javelin - nearly 450 built so almost certainly a commercial success for Gloster, but the only 'customer' was the RAF who commissioned the design in the first place and it was essentially obsolete from the moment it (finally) took to the air.

[Dr Jekyll]

The Britannia was operated by a surprising number of export customers considering the short production run. Could have been a lot more if only development hadn't been delayed.

[2xChevrons]

Dr Jekyll said:

The Britannia was operated by a surprising number of export customers considering the short production run. Could have been a lot more if only development hadn't been delayed.

I don't think the Britannia counts as a commercial success - I don't think BOAC ever bought more than 40 of them and the total built of 85 barely counts as a good run even by British standards.

But you're right, the protracted development (and BOAC's intransigence) robbed the Britannia of what should have been a very successful career. Five years between first flight and service entry was ridiculous. In that time the DC-7 had been planned, designed, prototyped, flown, tested, sold, outsold the Britannia by nearly six times (including 10 sold to BOAC!) and its jetliner replacement was on the stocks.

As with the car industry, the aircraft industry was hobbled by political and corporate interference combined with its own lack of financial, design and production resources, and an endemic disease in British industry of the time that was deathly afraid of just taking measured, careful baby steps. Always shooting for some dramatic Dan Dare-esque gamechanger which would be rushed through development and under-tested. It's notable that all the truesuccesses we've come up so far are (with the possible exception of the BAe146) the rare times when the industry just made 'a plane' with modest and achievable goals.

[aeropilot]

2xChevrons said:

Stuff like the Javelin - nearly 450 built so almost certainly a commercial success for Gloster, but the only 'customer' was the RAF who commissioned the design in the first place and it was essentially obsolete from the moment it (finally) took to the air.

Technically, the RAF didn't commission it, it was Gloster that decided to propose an aircraft to meet a 1947 Air Ministry specification, which is pretty much how it was all done back in those days, as we had half a dozen independent aircraft manufacturers still.
And in the mid 1950's there was considerable interest in the aircraft from multiple NATO countries, but it almost certainly didn't sell because of the aggressive and corrupt greasing of palms by Lockheed executives that resulted in most European NATO arms buying the F-104.
And while the old Dragmaster did have a troubled gestation period for the day, as a way of comparison, the Javelin went from specification, drawing board, testing and service life to scrapping all in the same time frame as its taken the F-35 just to get from specification to IOC.

[Eric Mc]

In many ways, the DH 110 should really have been the aircraft ordered by the RAF. But it’s high profile crash at Farnborough in 1952 doomed it.
The Javelin is the only aircraft I’ve ever heard of that went slower when afterburner was engaged. It also lunched turbine blades as a common occurrence.