Northern Rail performance
Discussion
My better half commutes with Northern Rail, about 15 minute train journey into Manchester city centre. Inbound around 8:20 in the morning, home-bound around 17:20.
I would say that at least 60% of her trains are delayed or more usually cancelled, and massively overcrowded when they do arrive. Signal failures, staff shortages, weather, train failures. It seems to be endemic within Northern Rail, and it's frequently touted as one of the worst performing rail franchises in the UK. The performance only seems to have worsened over the last 7 years.
Is there a tipping point where these franchises are stripped? Or is this something commuters are now just expected to expect? I must admit that during trips to London, I do question how well infrastructure funding is distributed outside the south east.
I would say that at least 60% of her trains are delayed or more usually cancelled, and massively overcrowded when they do arrive. Signal failures, staff shortages, weather, train failures. It seems to be endemic within Northern Rail, and it's frequently touted as one of the worst performing rail franchises in the UK. The performance only seems to have worsened over the last 7 years.
Is there a tipping point where these franchises are stripped? Or is this something commuters are now just expected to expect? I must admit that during trips to London, I do question how well infrastructure funding is distributed outside the south east.
Good afternoon. Devil's advocate here.. 
It looks like some of this needs checking. Questions would be asked in the House if "60% of her trains were delayed or more usually cancelled." So let's have some facts - which station is she leaving from and what station is she going to? I'll have a look at some recent performance data.
As regards massively overcrowded, it sounds like she is going in the peak and coming back in the peak. Realistically, if you travel on commuter trains in the peak - anywhere - be it Manchester or London or Glasgow or Cambridge or wherever, you are going to be in an overcrowded train. It's what comes of a massive increase in demand for rail travel over the last 30-odd years. And before anybody pipes up with "they should provide more trains" or "they should provide more carriages" always remember that it is the DfT that decides what trains that the Train Operating Companies get, not the TOCs themselves.
It looks like some of this needs checking. Questions would be asked in the House if "60% of her trains were delayed or more usually cancelled." So let's have some facts - which station is she leaving from and what station is she going to? I'll have a look at some recent performance data.
As regards massively overcrowded, it sounds like she is going in the peak and coming back in the peak. Realistically, if you travel on commuter trains in the peak - anywhere - be it Manchester or London or Glasgow or Cambridge or wherever, you are going to be in an overcrowded train. It's what comes of a massive increase in demand for rail travel over the last 30-odd years. And before anybody pipes up with "they should provide more trains" or "they should provide more carriages" always remember that it is the DfT that decides what trains that the Train Operating Companies get, not the TOCs themselves.
Edited by rs1952 on Saturday 12th October 20:22
Issue is that when franchises are let the DfT invariably go for the option that wants the smallest subsidy or offers the greatest return. In Northern area it will be the former. The franchise also sets out what trains, how long they will be and when they will run. The TOCs like Northern have no control over the track, signals etc and only a limited amount of control over the rolling stock, as it depends whats available.
The commuting networks around both London and Manchester are running at full capacity which means once it starts going wrong it impacts all over the place. I am not sure if Northern are affected by the deliberate decision to upset the onboard staff by taking away the guard.
Of course Manchester will benefit from HS2 in due course which will create capacity in the area when in finally gets built assuming it does.
London may appear to get more investment however have a look at https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1037/rail-fina... and compare the subsidises that Northern rail get to the TOCs operating in the south. Its a lot higher!
The commuting networks around both London and Manchester are running at full capacity which means once it starts going wrong it impacts all over the place. I am not sure if Northern are affected by the deliberate decision to upset the onboard staff by taking away the guard.
Of course Manchester will benefit from HS2 in due course which will create capacity in the area when in finally gets built assuming it does.
London may appear to get more investment however have a look at https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1037/rail-fina... and compare the subsidises that Northern rail get to the TOCs operating in the south. Its a lot higher!
No intention of turning this into a North v South debate, but the investment into train services anywhere north of Birmingham has been woeful for over 20 years. The rolling stock is old, often 'hand me downs' from other TOC, and the track doesn't seem to get the same amount of maintenance and upgrading as further South. For all the talk about a 'Northern Powerhouse' and the M62 Corridor being upgraded, not much seems to happen!
NickCQ said:
Condi said:
The rolling stock is old, often 'hand me downs' from other TOC
Genuine question - in the UK system who is responsible for what quality and type of rolling stock is used where? Is the regional difference all down to technical factors or is it about TOCs saving money?That's one of the ironies of current debate about the future of the railways. Many in favour of renationalisation seem to think that state ownership (aka state intervention) will improve the situation, whilst it is actually state intervention that makes things the way they are at the moment.
rs1952, Questions are being asked,
Northern Rail could be renationalised, said Grant Shapps
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/northern-rail-s...
Northern Rail could be renationalised, said Grant Shapps
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/northern-rail-s...
thetimes said:
Speaking today, Mr Shapps insisted that while other companies had since improved Northern was still struggling to deliver high standards.
Latest figures published by the Office of Rail and Road show that only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June, down by 1.5 percentage points compared with 2018. By comparison, 64.7 per cent of trains nationally were on time, up by 2.5 percentage points year-on-year.
It has also been criticised over delays in the withdrawal of Pacer trains – 80s-built “buses on rails” which are repeatedly criticised as slow and uncomfortable. They will run into next year despite repeated promises that they would be replaced by the end of 2019.
Latest figures published by the Office of Rail and Road show that only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June, down by 1.5 percentage points compared with 2018. By comparison, 64.7 per cent of trains nationally were on time, up by 2.5 percentage points year-on-year.
It has also been criticised over delays in the withdrawal of Pacer trains – 80s-built “buses on rails” which are repeatedly criticised as slow and uncomfortable. They will run into next year despite repeated promises that they would be replaced by the end of 2019.
TonyToniTone said:
rs1952, Questions are being asked,
Northern Rail could be renationalised, said Grant Shapps
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/northern-rail-s...
Yes I heard that and just came on to post about it but you beat me to it Northern Rail could be renationalised, said Grant Shapps
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/northern-rail-s...
thetimes said:
Speaking today, Mr Shapps insisted that while other companies had since improved Northern was still struggling to deliver high standards.
Latest figures published by the Office of Rail and Road show that only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June, down by 1.5 percentage points compared with 2018. By comparison, 64.7 per cent of trains nationally were on time, up by 2.5 percentage points year-on-year.
It has also been criticised over delays in the withdrawal of Pacer trains – 80s-built “buses on rails” which are repeatedly criticised as slow and uncomfortable. They will run into next year despite repeated promises that they would be replaced by the end of 2019.
Latest figures published by the Office of Rail and Road show that only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June, down by 1.5 percentage points compared with 2018. By comparison, 64.7 per cent of trains nationally were on time, up by 2.5 percentage points year-on-year.
It has also been criticised over delays in the withdrawal of Pacer trains – 80s-built “buses on rails” which are repeatedly criticised as slow and uncomfortable. They will run into next year despite repeated promises that they would be replaced by the end of 2019.
I don't really want to comment on "55.2% reached stations within a minute of right time" because it is a meaningless sound bite. Firstly it means that over 44.8% of their trains did reach their atation within a minute of right time but, more importantly, it doesn't (and indeed can't with it being such a broad brush "statistic") tell us anything about whose fault it was. Points failure? - Network Rail. Signal failure? - Network Rail. Delayed by other slow running trains? - The TOC who had a train in the Northern Rail's trains way. And so on.
If it is Grant Shapps who has criticised it over delays is withdrawing Pacers then it is an extremely blatant case of political spin. As has been explained above in earlier posts, it is the DfT who gets to decide what trains tOCs can run, and it is the DfT that arranges procurement for new trains. So if the TOC has to keep running Pacers because, for example, production delays in Seimens or Hitachi means that there are no replacement for the pacers, then its still the TOCs fault. It would be laughable if it wasn't such a blatant example of blame shifting.
And oh - by the way - the Pacers aren't being withdrawn because they give a slow and uncomfortable ride. They are being wothdrawn because of new disabled access legislation with which they don't comply.
I have used a lot of Pacers over the years - on Northern as well as other TOCs - and I do feel they get an unjustifiably bad press. They are actually more comfortable than many newer examples of rolling stock, especially the new class 800s with their fitted ironing boards as seats. As regards slow, they are used on stopping trains which, by their very nature, are slow. They do have a maximum speed of 75mph but are very rarely used in circumstances where they could achieve that maximum.
I don't think anyone cares why the pacers are being replaced as long as they are replaced, they leak, hot in the summer, cold in the winter horrible things, rickety and wallowing at the same time - just awful.
The reason they have not been replaced is down to delays in CAF manufacturing the new trains so possibly out of Northerns control.
Northern are more often than not late into and out of Manchester during peak, yet TPE are usually on time.
Would be interesting to see a break down of why they are late.
The reason they have not been replaced is down to delays in CAF manufacturing the new trains so possibly out of Northerns control.
Northern are more often than not late into and out of Manchester during peak, yet TPE are usually on time.
Would be interesting to see a break down of why they are late.
I live near a station on the Airedale Line which runs from Skipton to Leeds. The trains are fine but the overcrowding is horrific. If the most vile of criminals were imprisoned in the conditions that I've experienced on Northern trains the European Court of Human Rights would be all over it. There needs to be some kind of dictatorship that simply confiscates every penny of profit that they make and spends it on rolling stock to lengthen the trains, and also forces the infrastructure owners to build longer platforms to accommodate the longer trains. Failure seems to be too readily accepted in this country, particularly where our transport network is concerned.
MitchT said:
I live near a station on the Airedale Line which runs from Skipton to Leeds. The trains are fine but the overcrowding is horrific. If the most vile of criminals were imprisoned in the conditions that I've experienced on Northern trains the European Court of Human Rights would be all over it. There needs to be some kind of dictatorship that simply confiscates every penny of profit that they make and spends it on rolling stock to lengthen the trains, and also forces the infrastructure owners to build longer platforms to accommodate the longer trains. Failure seems to be too readily accepted in this country, particularly where our transport network is concerned.
Well you don't get to see many Pacers up there. They work the roughly 2-hourly Leeds to Carlisle and Lancaster trains, but everything else, including the at least 2 trains per hour services Leeds to Bradford, Leeds to Skipton, Leeds to Ilkley, Bradford to Skipton and Bradford to Ilkley lines are at least 4-car electric units.I've used all of those routes over the last 2 years, admittedly off peak, and I only saw one cancellation (a Bradford to Ilkley) but as there was another one along in 30 minutes it was an irritation more than a disaster.
If they are that crowded in the peak then it says a lot for the way that the railway has increased its customer base in recent years. As a matter of interest, I just looked it up and found that between Shipley and Leeds there are 13 trains between 0700 and 0900 - 7 from Skipton, 4 from Bradford, and one each from Car;isle and Lancaster. That sounds like at least 50 passenger coaches to me because the 0717 is going to London so will be longer. This morning none were cancelled, and the timings/ lateness was as follows:
0702 left at 0703 1 late
0708 left at 0713 5 late
0717 left at 0720 3 late
0729 left at 0732 3 late
0737 left at 0739 2 late
0745 left at 0749 4 late
0758 left at 0801 3 late
0802 left at 0803 1 late
0812 left at 0818 6 late
0815 left at 0830 15 late - this came from Carlisle so possibly a Pacer
0827 left at 0852 25 late - this came fro Lancaster so possibly a Pacer
0838 left at 0840 2 late
0842 left at 0843 1 late
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/S...
The Carlisle left that fair city 2 late and lost another 3 by Langwathby, and was 10 late into Skipton. From there it was an out-of-path train that had to be slotted in somewhere in between the intensive north west Leeds local services. It finally got into Leeds 10 late.
The Lancaster got away from the starting blocks right time but appears to have been held just before Hellifield to let the Carlisle go first. The it had the same problem as the Carlisle - trying to find a spare path amongst all the other trains,.
We do have a Controller on here who, if he reads this, might be able to tell us what happened on the Settle & Carlisle this morning, but as regards the other 11 trains, they were an aggregate of 31 minutes late, which averages out at less than 3 minutes delay each, with a minimum of 1 minute and a maximum of 6 minutes. In my book, those sorts of delays aren't worth getting into a lather about, because if i was a bus or a plane that was 6 minutes late nobody would bat an eyelid. That could just be me, of course
The Airedale Line services between Skipton and Leeds have four car electric units - 333s which I've always liked, some new 332s being rolled out which also seem good and some 321s and 322s which appear to be on the way out and have a rather naff seating layout. I've never had a particular gripe with punctuality or cancellations, it's the overcrowding that's simply not acceptable. They're on about introducing six car units but they'd have to keep the doors locked on two of the cars at most of the stations as the platforms aren't long enough and, as six cars aren't nearly enough to solve the problem, you're going to have people unable to alight at their station because they may find themselves stuck in an overcrowded carriage, unable to reach one with doors that will open. There needs to be a zero tolerance approach from some higher power that can wield influence over both Northern and whoever is responsible for the platforms at the stations - trains of at least eight coaches and platforms long enough to accommodate them. No excuses.
TonyToniTone said:
I don't think anyone cares why the pacers are being replaced as long as they are replaced, they leak, hot in the summer, cold in the winter horrible things, rickety and wallowing at the same time - just awful.
The reason they have not been replaced is down to delays in CAF manufacturing the new trains so possibly out of Northerns control.
Northern are more often than not late into and out of Manchester during peak, yet TPE are usually on time.
Would be interesting to see a break down of why they are late.
Short video on Pacer originThe reason they have not been replaced is down to delays in CAF manufacturing the new trains so possibly out of Northerns control.
Northern are more often than not late into and out of Manchester during peak, yet TPE are usually on time.
Would be interesting to see a break down of why they are late.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucA5xIgjZBc
I don't think Pacers cover the Leeds Settle Carlisle route. 10 years ago I used to commute daily between Carlisle and Appleby and never sat on a Pacer. I went from Carlisle to Leeds last month and it wasn't a Pacer.
Pacers get a bad press because, amongst other things, they're noisy, ride badly and have poor ventilation. They could have leather Recaro armchairs and they'd still be s
t.
Pacers get a bad press because, amongst other things, they're noisy, ride badly and have poor ventilation. They could have leather Recaro armchairs and they'd still be s
t.janesmith1950 said:
I don't think Pacers cover the Leeds Settle Carlisle route. 10 years ago I used to commute daily between Carlisle and Appleby and never sat on a Pacer. I went from Carlisle to Leeds last month and it wasn't a Pacer.
Pacers get a bad press because, amongst other things, they're noisy, ride badly and have poor ventilation. They could have leather Recaro armchairs and they'd still be st.
Here's a piccy of one I took last year at Hellifield working a Lancaster to Leeds service. Whether they work regularly north from Hellifield rather than west and south I couldn't say.Pacers get a bad press because, amongst other things, they're noisy, ride badly and have poor ventilation. They could have leather Recaro armchairs and they'd still be s
t.
Time could be running out for thee mighty fine railway operators
Grant is out to Shapp them into losing the franchise.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Grant is out to Shapp them into losing the franchise.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Ticket price increase is the only thing which arrives regularly 
https://www.lbcnews.co.uk/uk-news/train-ticket-pri...
All while we pay huge cash subsidies to the operators and they give back dividends to shareholders. Whose clever idea was that?
https://www.lbcnews.co.uk/uk-news/train-ticket-pri...
All while we pay huge cash subsidies to the operators and they give back dividends to shareholders. Whose clever idea was that?
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff