747, New York to London, sub 5 hours!

[MJK 24]

Bit of a tailwind, last night!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51433...

[Countdown]

Out of interest why have they referred to it as a 747-436 (as opposed to a 747-400)? What's the difference?

[anonymous-user]

Countdown said:

Out of interest why have they referred to it as a 747-436 (as opposed to a 747-400)? What's the difference?

36

[RC1807]

Wowzers! Sub 5h.... Bumpy ride?

Crossflow Kid said:

Countdown said:

Out of interest why have they referred to it as a 747-436 (as opposed to a 747-400)? What's the difference?

36

Countdown: perhaps seating configuration, so a sub model writhing 400 range?

[FourWheelDrift]

Boeing 747-400 is the series variant of the 747, 36 is the customer code for BA. So 747-436.

[Simpo Two]

Technical stuff from the BBC here: 'Despite travelling faster than the speed of sound the plane would not have broken the sonic barrier as it was helped along by fast-moving air.'

Said Timmy to Spot the Dog.

And as for stuff travelling east-west? Maybe quicker to turn round and go the long way

[anonymous-user]

FourWheelDrift said:

Boeing 747-400 is the series variant of the 747, 36 is the customer code for BA. So 747-436.

If you or some other airline buys the aircraft it’s still B747 436 even if another company own and operate it.

You still see loads of old B757 236s flying around which were ex BA ones.

Even if a customer cancelled an order the aircraft still kept the original customer code.

This all stopped in 2016 though.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 9th February 19:36

[aeropilot]

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

[MJK 24]

aeropilot said:

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

How much is 1,000kg of aviation fuel?

[dvs_dave]

MJK 24 said:

aeropilot said:

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

How much is 1,000kg of aviation fuel?

At it’s simplest level, a 744 is a much larger aircraft than an A350, so hardly a surprise it used a lot more fuel. What was the difference in fuel consumption per seat? That’s what matters in the commercial world. An A350 will obviously be more efficient, but the difference won’t be as stark.

[Testaburger]

dvs_dave said:

At it’s simplest level, a 744 is a much larger aircraft than an A350, so hardly a surprise it used a lot more fuel. What was the difference in fuel consumption per seat? That’s what matters in the commercial world. An A350 will obviously be more efficient, but the difference won’t be as stark.

It’s still fairly stark. I can tell you from experience that compared to a 777-300ER with a similar seat-count on a 12 hour flight, a 350 will burn 25T less, and on a 14-15 hour flight, around 40T less.

The 777 can ultimately carry a higher payload on a 12 hour flight, which can be useful, but again that comes with an increase in fuel burn of about 375kg per extra tonne carried.

On the 15 hour flight, both types are payload restricted to allow more fuel to be loaded.

[normalbloke]

MJK 24 said:

aeropilot said:

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

How much is 1,000kg of aviation fuel?

About 1234 litres...

[dvs_dave]

Testaburger said:

dvs_dave said:

At it’s simplest level, a 744 is a much larger aircraft than an A350, so hardly a surprise it used a lot more fuel. What was the difference in fuel consumption per seat? That’s what matters in the commercial world. An A350 will obviously be more efficient, but the difference won’t be as stark.

It’s still fairly stark. I can tell you from experience that compared to a 777-300ER with a similar seat-count on a 12 hour flight, a 350 will burn 25T less, and on a 14-15 hour flight, around 40T less.

The 777 can ultimately carry a higher payload on a 12 hour flight, which can be useful, but again that comes with an increase in fuel burn of about 375kg per extra tonne carried.

On the 15 hour flight, both types are payload restricted to allow more fuel to be loaded.

Ok great....but what is that difference broken down to a common comparable unit?

Seems like we’ll need google’s help with that question;
B744 - 27 pax-km/L
A359 - 43 pax-km/L
B773ER - 36 pax-km/L

So with the 744 as a baseline, the 773ER gets 33% better mileage, and the A359 gets 60% better mileage, which is impressive, and a stark comparable difference.

[Equilibrium25]

Great to see the old girl get in the record books. Hope it stands for some time. Didn’t a VC10 hold the record for decades, or was that going the other way?

[hutchst]

normalbloke said:

About 1234 litres...

That depends on the altitude.

[Dr Jekyll]

dvs_dave said:

At it’s simplest level, a 744 is a much larger aircraft than an A350, so hardly a surprise it used a lot more fuel. What was the difference in fuel consumption per seatoccupied seat? That’s what matters in the commercial world. An A350 will obviously be more efficient, but the difference won’t be as stark.

[Testaburger]

dvs_dave said:

Ok great....but what is that difference broken down to a common comparable unit?

Seems like we’ll need google’s help with that question;
B744 - 27 pax-km/L
A359 - 43 pax-km/L
B773ER - 36 pax-km/L

So with the 744 as a baseline, the 773ER gets 33% better mileage, and the A359 gets 60% better mileage, which is impressive, and a stark comparable difference.

Indeed. The 744 is a magnificent beast, and has dominated the long haul scene for decades now, but her day has passed for a few reasons.

It’s worth pointing out though, that the 744 can still do things that other modern jets can’t (haul HUGE weights for fun), which is why they’re still the freighter of choice for many), and while today’s newest aircraft like the 350 are ultra efficient in comparison, that is only true when they’re operating in their sweet spot, rather like an F1 car. If you give the 350 the wrong levels to cruise at, or even wavy winds aloft and it’s not happy at all.

[Eric Mc]

The 747 also has a higher achievable Mach number. Look at the sweepback angle on a set of 747 wings compared to a modern airliner.


747


777

[LHRFlightman]

dvs_dave said:

MJK 24 said:

aeropilot said:

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

How much is 1,000kg of aviation fuel?

At it’s simplest level, a 744 is a much larger aircraft than an A350, so hardly a surprise it used a lot more fuel. What was the difference in fuel consumption per seat? That’s what matters in the commercial world. An A350 will obviously be more efficient, but the difference won’t be as stark.

It's not, both in dimensions and not really in seat capacity.

747 is 71m m long with a 64m wingspan
350-1000 is 73.79m long and has a 64.75m wingspan.

The BA112 (GCIVP) has 337 seats, whereas the VS4 (GVPOP) has 335.

[hidetheelephants]

MJK 24 said:

aeropilot said:

Seems the old BA 747 was having a race with a new Virgin A350 also out of NY on the way over......the 747 landing a minute ahead of the A350, with a 1 minute faster crossing time (although the A350 used an astonishing 22 tonnes of fuel less than the 747 for the flight!)

How much is 1,000kg of aviation fuel?

A litre seems to be ~60p at the moment in the UK, but it depends on where you are and how much you're buying.