Quintinshill Rail Disaster
Discussion
I can remember my late Grandmother talking about this many years ago, as the troop train had come from Larbert, near Falkirk, where she grew up. She was 9 years old at the time, and it happened not long after her older brother had departed after home leave back in Falkirk, before going to France with the 7th KOSB. They never saw him again, as he was posted KIA on the first day of the Battle of Loos in Sept 1915, that's why the two events were also intertwined in her memory.
matchmaker said:
I think it is more than likely this did happen, having read several accounts of the disaster.
Indeed, there seems no reason to doubt it, the carriage upper frames mainly made of wood and lit by gas canisters, men trapped and the fire approaching, not sure if squaddies travelled with loaded rifles but officers would have had revolvers.
Awful tragedy, more awful when one reads of the appalling ineptitude of the signalmen.
Big-Bo-Beep said:
Awful tragedy, more awful when one reads of the appalling ineptitude of the signalmen.
The documentary that came out a few years back for the centenary of the disaster did raise the point that, while the actions of the signalmen on the day clearly precipitated the disaster, they were quite possibly set up to take the blame but not face any real consequences, because a proper evaluation of what happened at Quintinshill raises all sorts of systemic issues and rules-breaches at the Caledonian Railway, the railway industry in general and the government's administration of the railways in wartime. For instance, it stretches credibility to believe that, whatever he said at the enquiry, the station master at Gretna did not know about Tinsley and Meakin's arrangment which allowed the man on the morning shift to arrive late by the local train. The fireman of the local train did not properly ensure that his train was protected while it stood on the main line, and there was general slackness amongst all the railwaymen in the signal box at the time of the accident. However commonplace it was, it was against regulations for off-duty signalmen, guards and firemen to hang around in the box having a chat and a cuppa.
Then there's the issue of the obsolete and far less crash-resistant wooden-bodied rolling stock used on the troop train, taken out of storage and pressed into service by the government's own Railway Executive Committee. The REC could potentially have awkward questions to answer about the higher workload and working hours placed on signalmen given the increase in traffic in wartime, and the fact that the network (including the main line that Quintinshill was part of) was at the limit of its capacity because the individual railway companies, while under government control, were reluctant (to the point of refusal in some cases) to withdraw regular civilian services to make space for extra military traffic - the local train would not have had to be stood on a main running line in the normal timetable, but both passing loops were (or were scheduled to be) occupied by war-service trains.
So there is the possibility that Tinsley and Meakin were nudged to become the sole scapegoats. Both were released early from prison (Tinsley serving only 15 months of his three-year sentence) and both were taken straight back to employment by the Caledonian Railway, albeit in different positions. They took the rap to spare the Caledonian and the government wider embarrasment, and so were 'looked after' with continued employment afterwards.
I am reminded of the surviving officers of the Titanic, who gave 'careful' accounts at the enquiry into that disaster which, while giving the information requested did not go one iota further than that and produced a factually accurate but not entirely authentic picture which, co-incidentally, left the White Star Line, Harland & Wolff and the Board of Trade largely in the clear. Whether they were specifically 'leant on' or whether they were just ensuring the future of their careers will never be known, but they were given continued employment by White Star and/or IMM. Interestingly, once they had retired and had no further need for corporate loyalty, both Second Officer Lightoller and Fourth Officer Boxhall suddenly 'remembered' a whole lot of extra information and their accounts take on a somewhat different picture!
2xChevrons said:
Then there's the issue of the obsolete and far less crash-resistant wooden-bodied rolling stock used on the troop train, taken out of storage and pressed into service by the government's own Railway Executive Committee.
Even the newer rolling stock available at the time wouldn’t have helped. The last steel under frame / wooden bodied mainland carriages were still in use in the 1980s! The mk1s had a timber frame with a non-structural steel skin. Inner suburban stock replacement took longer. I used to love travelling on the steam heated compartment carriages but being more knowledgable there are some seats on the new stock I won’t use because they are in the crumple zones!
Yes well, cover up or not, fact is, other signallers of that era diligently obeyed the rules, passed thousands of trains
and did not cause 3 trains to crash causing hundreds of deaths.
The fault lies entirely with the two signallers, who were experienced, reasonably paid and in a nice reserved occupation
with no Germans shooting at them. Under no stress or overwork they criminally forgot about a train sitting stationary
on the line outside the signalbox [ even though that train's driver was in the signalbox ] and gave permission for the troop train
to approach on the same line leading to the first collision.
They then failed to stop or slow the 3rd train from hitting the debris of the first crash.
It wasn't only Meakin and Tilsley, 3 other experienced railwaymen in the box failed to realise the mistake the signalmen had made
and point this out to the signalmen, or even remind them of the presence of the stationary train.
and did not cause 3 trains to crash causing hundreds of deaths.
The fault lies entirely with the two signallers, who were experienced, reasonably paid and in a nice reserved occupation
with no Germans shooting at them. Under no stress or overwork they criminally forgot about a train sitting stationary
on the line outside the signalbox [ even though that train's driver was in the signalbox ] and gave permission for the troop train
to approach on the same line leading to the first collision.
They then failed to stop or slow the 3rd train from hitting the debris of the first crash.
It wasn't only Meakin and Tilsley, 3 other experienced railwaymen in the box failed to realise the mistake the signalmen had made
and point this out to the signalmen, or even remind them of the presence of the stationary train.
IJWS15 said:
2xChevrons said:
Then there's the issue of the obsolete and far less crash-resistant wooden-bodied rolling stock used on the troop train, taken out of storage and pressed into service by the government's own Railway Executive Committee.
Even the newer rolling stock available at the time wouldn’t have helped. The last steel under frame / wooden bodied mainland carriages were still in use in the 1980s! The mk1s had a timber frame with a non-structural steel skin. Inner suburban stock replacement took longer. I used to love travelling on the steam heated compartment carriages but being more knowledgable there are some seats on the new stock I won’t use because they are in the crumple zones!
BR Mk 1 carriages were of all steel construction. The (very few) remaining carriages with wooden body and/or frame were withdrawn in the mid 1970s.Big-Bo-Beep said:
Yes well, cover up or not, fact is, other signallers of that era diligently obeyed the rules, passed thousands of trains
and did not cause 3 trains to crash causing hundreds of deaths.
The fault lies entirely with the two signallers, who were experienced, reasonably paid and in a nice reserved occupation
with no Germans shooting at them. Under no stress or overwork they criminally forgot about a train sitting stationary
on the line outside the signalbox [ even though that train's driver was in the signalbox ] and gave permission for the troop train
to approach on the same line leading to the first collision.
They then failed to stop or slow the 3rd train from hitting the debris of the first crash.
It wasn't only Meakin and Tilsley, 3 other experienced railwaymen in the box failed to realise the mistake the signalmen had made
and point this out to the signalmen, or even remind them of the presence of the stationary train.
That's the nub of it. I've read about the conspiracy theory and don't give it much credence.and did not cause 3 trains to crash causing hundreds of deaths.
The fault lies entirely with the two signallers, who were experienced, reasonably paid and in a nice reserved occupation
with no Germans shooting at them. Under no stress or overwork they criminally forgot about a train sitting stationary
on the line outside the signalbox [ even though that train's driver was in the signalbox ] and gave permission for the troop train
to approach on the same line leading to the first collision.
They then failed to stop or slow the 3rd train from hitting the debris of the first crash.
It wasn't only Meakin and Tilsley, 3 other experienced railwaymen in the box failed to realise the mistake the signalmen had made
and point this out to the signalmen, or even remind them of the presence of the stationary train.
matchmaker said:
BR Mk 1 carriages were of all steel construction. The (very few) remaining carriages with wooden body and/or frame were withdrawn in the mid 1970s.Neonblau said:
The Gresley buffets? I think a couple of them made till 1977. I remember one (E9128E I think) being a regular fixture on the 4 o'clock Glasgow Central to Nottingham, always hauled by a Holbeck Peak.
They were the last in use - 1977. The last LMS design (but BR built) second class sleeping cars were withdrawn in 1976.matchmaker said:
They were the last in use - 1977. The last LMS design (but BR built) second class sleeping cars were withdrawn in 1976.
I'd forgotten about them too. Saw a couple in the sidings outsde Glasgow Central, probably 1974 or thereabouts. Blue & grey didn't sit well on the LMS sleepers.I seem to recall a couple of Thompson buffet cars being around fat the same time, possibly even later, although they would be steel panelled.
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