Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Yes - "Controversial Chap Bordering on Unpleasant" would have been a better thread title - and he was nothing like the way he was portrayed by Kenneth More in the film "Reach for the Sky".
Well in those days we liked our heroes to be heroes, not dismantle them as flawed individuals. I suspect someone that was completely 'nice' wouldn't have been up to the job; combat demands certain traits that may not be desirable in peacetime.'Captain Scott didn't sleep in the same room as his men'. 'Boo hiss bad man'; Of course not, he was a f
king officer and that's the way stuff was then!Simpo Two said:
Eric Mc said:
Yes - "Controversial Chap Bordering on Unpleasant" would have been a better thread title - and he was nothing like the way he was portrayed by Kenneth More in the film "Reach for the Sky".
Well in those days we liked our heroes to be heroes, not dismantle them as flawed individuals. I suspect someone that was completely 'nice' wouldn't have been up to the job; combat demands certain traits that may not be desirable in peacetime.He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual among his fellow POW's during WW2....
He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual in peacetime after WW2....
He wasn't well like by his peers outside his of his own Squadron during WW2....
The question of heroes is quite interesting. About 10yrs ago I went through a Battle of Britain phase and read a fair bit on the subject. My conclusion as to the key personalities was that Keith Park and 'Stuffy' Dowding - both treated shabbily at the time - were more inspiring in a low key way than the big names like Bader who were hero-worshipped. More interested in their men than themselves, and in doing a job rather than seeking the spotlight.
But that said, there is clearly more than one way of being an effective leader and Bader's determination was certainly remarkable. Sheer force of personality is a good way of getting things done in a crisis, but it seems that the people who have that quality often use it to do the 'wrong' things. That much is still true today.
But that said, there is clearly more than one way of being an effective leader and Bader's determination was certainly remarkable. Sheer force of personality is a good way of getting things done in a crisis, but it seems that the people who have that quality often use it to do the 'wrong' things. That much is still true today.
crofty1984 said:
dr_gn said:
Guy Gibson was another aparently.
I've bough "Winkle" Brown's book to read at Christmas. I wonder what he was like as a person?
Didn't he have a dog?I've bough "Winkle" Brown's book to read at Christmas. I wonder what he was like as a person?
aeropilot said:
Bader was an unpleasant and arrogant individual in peacetime prior to WW2......
He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual among his fellow POW's during WW2....
He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual in peacetime after WW2....
He wasn't well like by his peers outside his of his own Squadron during WW2....
He was there to forge a squadron, and later a wing, and collectively to shoot down as many Germans as possible. It wasn't a popularity contest; his own squadron/s respected him and that's all that mattered then.He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual among his fellow POW's during WW2....
He was an unpleasant and arrogant individual in peacetime after WW2....
He wasn't well like by his peers outside his of his own Squadron during WW2....
dontlookdown said:
My conclusion as to the key personalities was that Keith Park and 'Stuffy' Dowding - both treated shabbily at the time - were more inspiring in a low key way than the big names like Bader who were hero-worshipped. More interested in their men than themselves, and in doing a job rather than seeking the spotlight.
Dowding arguably won the BoB by careful deployment of resources. But the public liked aces for morale, and we forget how important that was. dontlookdown said:
But that said, there is clearly more than one way of being an effective leader and Bader's determination was certainly remarkable. Sheer force of personality is a good way of getting things done in a crisis, but it seems that the people who have that quality often use it to do the 'wrong' things. That much is still true today.
Donald Trump is a good example.Simpo Two said:
He was there to forge a squadron, and later a wing, and collectively to shoot down as many Germans as possible. It wasn't a popularity contest; his own squadron/s respected him and that's all that mattered then.
That was but 2 years of his life.....he was an arrogant and unpleasant man for most of the other 70 years he wasn't doing that.The British disease at work again.
Read most books on WW2 and expect to see people like Von Manstein and Doenitz lauded (when both should have ended up at the end of a rope) and people like Montgomery or Patton having their character dissected.
Boy do we like to knock people off their pedestals. I wouldn't mind if they were on those pedestals for being nice people but they're not.
Read most books on WW2 and expect to see people like Von Manstein and Doenitz lauded (when both should have ended up at the end of a rope) and people like Montgomery or Patton having their character dissected.
Boy do we like to knock people off their pedestals. I wouldn't mind if they were on those pedestals for being nice people but they're not.
His political views would have gone down well in NP&E:
Withdraw sanctions from Rhodesia so negotiations could take place without pressure
Stop immigration into Britain immediately until the "situation had been examined"
Reintroduce the death penalty for murder
Ban betting shops, "They breed protection rackets. That's why we're getting like Chicago in the '20s"
Withdraw sanctions from Rhodesia so negotiations could take place without pressure
Stop immigration into Britain immediately until the "situation had been examined"
Reintroduce the death penalty for murder
Ban betting shops, "They breed protection rackets. That's why we're getting like Chicago in the '20s"
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