Selling/buying used boats after 31/12/2020
Discussion
Without doubt, we are into a change to the costs come 31/12, but what do the forum consider will be the consequences?
There are already HMRC diktats that insist you pay the VAT and import taxes on used boats imported into the UK, which are current EU laws, AIUI, but is there an opportunity after we leave to pick up a bargain from outside the EU?
A few nice boats for sale in the USA, and elsewhere, that I would jump at the chance to buy if we could bring them back to the UK without the outrageous taxes and limitations of use!
Does anyone on here have the latest advise?
There are already HMRC diktats that insist you pay the VAT and import taxes on used boats imported into the UK, which are current EU laws, AIUI, but is there an opportunity after we leave to pick up a bargain from outside the EU?
A few nice boats for sale in the USA, and elsewhere, that I would jump at the chance to buy if we could bring them back to the UK without the outrageous taxes and limitations of use!
Does anyone on here have the latest advise?
Simpo Two said:
Dunno! What does the WTO say about boats...?
I doubt the UK will be in a hurry to cut taxes for a while; there's a bit of a hole to fill.
So when you come to sell MV Simpo you'll be happy to reduce the price to attract a buyer who will have a larger market to choose from at a lesser price?I doubt the UK will be in a hurry to cut taxes for a while; there's a bit of a hole to fill.
The good news for buyers of used boats will be evident in the next few months/years, I predict, and there are more boats worldwide and closer still, such as the CI's, that will be worth a look, albeit a delivery trip from distance may be required!
pequod said:
So when you come to sell MV Simpo you'll be happy to reduce the price to attract a buyer who will have a larger market to choose from at a lesser price?
It would be sold or p/exed in this country, probably at a broker, and is currently worth more than it was last year thanks to increased demand 
I don't think realistically that someone wanting a 27' inland cabin cruiser would consider importing one from America etc.
Simpo Two said:
pequod said:
So when you come to sell MV Simpo you'll be happy to reduce the price to attract a buyer who will have a larger market to choose from at a lesser price?
It would be sold or p/exed in this country, probably at a broker, and is currently worth more than it was last year thanks to increased demand I don't think realistically that someone wanting a 27' inland cabin cruiser would consider importing one from America etc.
A 'classic' such as yours will always have a select market however, as we have seen with our 'new to boating' chum, there is an even bigger market for newbies wanting a nice shiny bargain boat with all the amenities!
It will interesting to watch what happens.
lol well I wouldn't exactly call mine a classic, but I don't think Brexit is going to make much difference to the inland scene. But I think your other point suggests that suddenly we're going to be able to buy cheap boats from the US - and that depends on what old Crusty Biden, not known for his love of England, does. Unless or until the UK cooks up a trade deal with the US I imagine we'd be on WTO terms. Whether that would make the mass import of US boats commerically feasible I don't know. If it does, maybe I'll buy one! If it depresses values of UK boats, no big deal as you sell lower but buy lower - and have more choice too.
What was the position boat-wise before we joined the EU in 1973?
What was the position boat-wise before we joined the EU in 1973?
Sorry to pee on the parade, but you need to take a little read up on the EU's RCD (recreational craft directive which is CE-marking for boats) which the UK will continue to adopt in alignment post 31/12/20 (with a different name).
For this reason, it is really no different to before, but if anything, perhaps more challenging/expensive as you would need UK specific documentation instead of EU (or perhaps both to maximise your options for onward sale).
I had an entertaining conversation with one of the UK's leading high profile Brexiteers a few weeks ago and even he had to admit at the end of the conversation that there isn't really much 'good' that will come out of Brexit for the yachtsman. Having run through it from every angle possible (and this includes direct contact with HMRC for VAT and Trading Standards for RCD), the ONLY real advantage I can see from the British yachtsman is that they no longer have to be paranoid about their VAT paperwork when heading into Europe as they will be there under T/A (temporary admission), although that comes with its own raft of restrictions and disadvantages.
The next 12 months is going to be super-challenging.
For this reason, it is really no different to before, but if anything, perhaps more challenging/expensive as you would need UK specific documentation instead of EU (or perhaps both to maximise your options for onward sale).
I had an entertaining conversation with one of the UK's leading high profile Brexiteers a few weeks ago and even he had to admit at the end of the conversation that there isn't really much 'good' that will come out of Brexit for the yachtsman. Having run through it from every angle possible (and this includes direct contact with HMRC for VAT and Trading Standards for RCD), the ONLY real advantage I can see from the British yachtsman is that they no longer have to be paranoid about their VAT paperwork when heading into Europe as they will be there under T/A (temporary admission), although that comes with its own raft of restrictions and disadvantages.
The next 12 months is going to be super-challenging.
Thanks for your reply. I'm well aware of the RCD regs but why would UK, post Brexit, continue to follow EU directives? We can, and should, make our own decisions and regs and not just accept the rules which suit the French/German mass market boat builders!
Are the EU RCD regs much different to the safety and build quality that the USCG regulate and, if so, can you please detail the differences?
The 18 month rule (TIR provision) will apply to British registered boats entering the EU after 31/12/20, same as non EU boats now, but how many will that seriously affect?
Notwithstanding this is a PITA short term, but I wonder if long term, it may be a good thing to open up our market to boat builders from across the pond, and further afield?
Are the EU RCD regs much different to the safety and build quality that the USCG regulate and, if so, can you please detail the differences?
The 18 month rule (TIR provision) will apply to British registered boats entering the EU after 31/12/20, same as non EU boats now, but how many will that seriously affect?
Notwithstanding this is a PITA short term, but I wonder if long term, it may be a good thing to open up our market to boat builders from across the pond, and further afield?
Simpo Two said:
I would just say 'We managed OK before 1973'. We just have to regrow our withered testicles.
Agreed. The UK still have a few yards that build quality boats. I remember, for example, Moody attempting to compete to build boats to 'suit the pocket' rather than sticking to their traditional, hand made, quality products. Westerly also went down the same rabbit hole.Having owned, chartered, and sailed aboard other peoples' EU built boats I would suggest that most of their products are poorly constructed for long term use, OK when new, but are like modern cars, that become uneconomic to repair after a decade or less of use.
We can, and should do better.
pequod said:
There are already HMRC diktats that insist you pay the VAT and import taxes on used boats imported into the UK, which are current EU laws, AIUI, but is there an opportunity after we leave to pick up a bargain from outside the EU?
The import taxes on used boats from the rest of the world will remain the same, regardless of any post Brexit deal with the EU.homerdog said:
The import taxes on used boats from the rest of the world will remain the same, regardless of any post Brexit deal with the EU.
I have no issue with paying duty on the value of a used boat imported into the UK from elsewhere in the world, but the 20% VAT and the cost of complying with the RCD (even though the craft complies with, say, the USCG regs) is something I would hope the Govt can look at post Brexit.https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/leg...
pequod said:
Thanks for your reply. I'm well aware of the RCD regs but why would UK, post Brexit, continue to follow EU directives? We can, and should, make our own decisions and regs and not just accept the rules which suit the French/German mass market boat builders!
Are the EU RCD regs much different to the safety and build quality that the USCG regulate and, if so, can you please detail the differences?
The 18 month rule (TIR provision) will apply to British registered boats entering the EU after 31/12/20, same as non EU boats now, but how many will that seriously affect?
Notwithstanding this is a PITA short term, but I wonder if long term, it may be a good thing to open up our market to boat builders from across the pond, and further afield?
Ref the EU RCD rules against the USCG rules, yes, they can be quite different. You also have to factor in that if a boat arrives in the UK (or Europe) from outside of the EU (or UK) and is placed into market, it will be assessed according to the current RCD requirements (RCD II) which in layman's terms means that you will probably be in for a brand new engine(s) at least... once all of these factors add themselves together it usually erodes away the potential of a 'profit' to the point where there simply isn't any point for anyone other than the most determined buyer. Are the EU RCD regs much different to the safety and build quality that the USCG regulate and, if so, can you please detail the differences?
The 18 month rule (TIR provision) will apply to British registered boats entering the EU after 31/12/20, same as non EU boats now, but how many will that seriously affect?
Notwithstanding this is a PITA short term, but I wonder if long term, it may be a good thing to open up our market to boat builders from across the pond, and further afield?
Just to complicate matters further, while not required in the UK, for many European flags, presentation of the ORIGINAL DoC (Declaration of Conformity) and CE certification is mandatory, even though in law, it often actually isn't (long explanation behind this, but the conclusion is that it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, it's not going to help you if you want/have to deal with one of these registries). This may not be immediately relevant to a UK buyer, but as always, you need to think about onward sale as this can have a sizeable effect on values.
As to why the UK will adopt the same regs (although title them different), well that's just because it most convenient. They are doing no different (in many ways) with their treatment of VAT, employing essentially the same EU rules ref RGR (returned goods relief) as it saves them trying to reinvent the wheel... instead they are very busy trying to hammer square pegs into round holes and making a real mess of it.
As for VAT.... and the short term 'PITA', it is much more far-reaching as you dig in more. The last official advice I received directly from HMRC (just a week or so ago) stated:-
"Returned goods relief (RGR) will be available at the end of the Transition Period (TP) for goods returning to the UK from the EU, provided that RGR conditions are met. The general rules for RGR will be that the goods must have been exported from the UK and return within 3 years of export. Additionally, for VAT RGR to apply, the exporter and importer must be the same person and any VAT due must have been previously paid in the UK or EU.
The Government has recognised the challenges faced by owners of goods including pleasure craft owners in returning their possessions to GB before the end of the TP in order to qualify for Returned Goods Relief (RGR). Accordingly, there will be a twelve month period of grace so that goods that have been outside the UK and located in the EU at the end of the TP can return to the UK in 2021 and benefit from RGR, subject to the other conditions for relief being met.
If the goods return after this date and they have been outside of the UK for more than three years, customs duties, including VAT, may become due.
To provide an exception to these rules for the pleasure craft sector goes further than the provision of transitional arrangements for goods returning to the UK and would apply a special treatment to pleasure craft which is not available to other goods in free circulation in the EU at the end of the TP. The Government does not consider that such special treatment can be justified."
The above guidance suggests that Returned Goods Relief will ONLY be applicable to those UK-based owners who RETURN with their yachts within the given time frame and therefore the boat must have been in the UK originally within this timeframe, in the same ownership as is now bringing her back. This is massively far-reaching as it essentially penalises any UK national who bought their boat in Europe and has kept it out there. Even though they made the purchase legitimately as a member of the EU28, the HMRC policy makers feel that this is justification to charge UK VAT again if the boat returns, either in this ownership, or a new ownership. From reading the notes above, this would also extend to a boats originally UK VAT-paid. I can see this being extensively challenged in the courts as it represents double taxation.
As I mentioned above, over the past months, I have spent more time than is really healthy dealing with HMRC and also Trading Standards to try to get my head around where we are, and where we are going.
Edited by Yacht Broker on Sunday 13th December 16:39
Edited by Yacht Broker on Sunday 13th December 17:02
Condi said:
Simpo Two said:
I would just say 'We managed OK before 1973'. We just have to regrow our withered testicles.
Aside, of course, we were known as "the sick man of Europe"; up to you if that is "managing OK" or not. NickCQ said:
I think the RYA is advising getting some sort of documentary evidence of the vessel's location at midnight on 31-Dec-20 to keep with the ship's papers. I am not sure exactly what that means - letter from the harbour master / marina manager?
Documentary proof that a vessel has been in UK/EU waters prior to 31/12/2020 will be required going forward. Receipts from the harbour authority/marina will be fine. The problem with not having evidence of your vessels location may be a problem when you come to sell as you will not be able to prove that you boat isn't an import and therefore, duties will need to be paid and expensive modifications including changing your engine, apparently!! 
ETA: Many owners who keep their boats in EU waters (including S Ireland) have already moved their boats into UK waters! Just saying if you do, and haven't!
Edited by pequod on Monday 14th December 17:07
Yacht Broker said:
Ref the EU RCD rules against the USCG rules, yes, they can be quite different. You also have to factor in that if a boat arrives in the UK (or Europe) from outside of the EU (or UK) and is placed into market, it will be assessed according to the current RCD requirements (RCD II) which in layman's terms means that you will probably be in for a brand new engine(s) at least... once all of these factors add themselves together it usually erodes away the potential of a 'profit' to the point where there simply isn't any point for anyone other than the most determined buyer.
Just to complicate matters further, while not required in the UK, for many European flags, presentation of the ORIGINAL DoC (Declaration of Conformity) and CE certification is mandatory, even though in law, it often actually isn't (long explanation behind this, but the conclusion is that it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, it's not going to help you if you want/have to deal with one of these registries). This may not be immediately relevant to a UK buyer, but as always, you need to think about onward sale as this can have a sizeable effect on values.
As to why the UK will adopt the same regs (although title them different), well that's just because it most convenient. They are doing no different (in many ways) with their treatment of VAT, employing essentially the same EU rules ref RGR (returned goods relief) as it saves them trying to reinvent the wheel... instead they are very busy trying to hammer square pegs into round holes and making a real mess of it.
As for VAT.... and the short term 'PITA', it is much more far-reaching as you dig in more. The last official advice I received directly from HMRC (just a week or so ago) stated:-
"Returned goods relief (RGR) will be available at the end of the Transition Period (TP) for goods returning to the UK from the EU, provided that RGR conditions are met. The general rules for RGR will be that the goods must have been exported from the UK and return within 3 years of export. Additionally, for VAT RGR to apply, the exporter and importer must be the same person and any VAT due must have been previously paid in the UK or EU.
The Government has recognised the challenges faced by owners of goods including pleasure craft owners in returning their possessions to GB before the end of the TP in order to qualify for Returned Goods Relief (RGR). Accordingly, there will be a twelve month period of grace so that goods that have been outside the UK and located in the EU at the end of the TP can return to the UK in 2021 and benefit from RGR, subject to the other conditions for relief being met.
If the goods return after this date and they have been outside of the UK for more than three years, customs duties, including VAT, may become due.
To provide an exception to these rules for the pleasure craft sector goes further than the provision of transitional arrangements for goods returning to the UK and would apply a special treatment to pleasure craft which is not available to other goods in free circulation in the EU at the end of the TP. The Government does not consider that such special treatment can be justified."
The above guidance suggests that Returned Goods Relief will ONLY be applicable to those UK-based owners who RETURN with their yachts within the given time frame and therefore the boat must have been in the UK originally within this timeframe, in the same ownership as is now bringing her back. This is massively far-reaching as it essentially penalises any UK national who bought their boat in Europe and has kept it out there. Even though they made the purchase legitimately as a member of the EU28, the HMRC policy makers feel that this is justification to charge UK VAT again if the boat returns, either in this ownership, or a new ownership. From reading the notes above, this would also extend to a boats originally UK VAT-paid. I can see this being extensively challenged in the courts as it represents double taxation.
As I mentioned above, over the past months, I have spent more time than is really healthy dealing with HMRC and also Trading Standards to try to get my head around where we are, and where we are going.
I have spent a little time today researching this 'engine change' issue. It is, again, another artificial EU protectionist regulation. Changing the 'noise and emissions' rules to keep out the foreigners (ie USA), is simply unacceptable and is yet another example of the EU not willing to play on a level playing field and I would suggest this is in part, the result of the USA/EU FTA falling out! I doubt there are many differences between a VP engine built in the US or EU except a US built one probably doesn't have 'faults' so often? RCD2 and all that jazz!Just to complicate matters further, while not required in the UK, for many European flags, presentation of the ORIGINAL DoC (Declaration of Conformity) and CE certification is mandatory, even though in law, it often actually isn't (long explanation behind this, but the conclusion is that it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, it's not going to help you if you want/have to deal with one of these registries). This may not be immediately relevant to a UK buyer, but as always, you need to think about onward sale as this can have a sizeable effect on values.
As to why the UK will adopt the same regs (although title them different), well that's just because it most convenient. They are doing no different (in many ways) with their treatment of VAT, employing essentially the same EU rules ref RGR (returned goods relief) as it saves them trying to reinvent the wheel... instead they are very busy trying to hammer square pegs into round holes and making a real mess of it.
As for VAT.... and the short term 'PITA', it is much more far-reaching as you dig in more. The last official advice I received directly from HMRC (just a week or so ago) stated:-
"Returned goods relief (RGR) will be available at the end of the Transition Period (TP) for goods returning to the UK from the EU, provided that RGR conditions are met. The general rules for RGR will be that the goods must have been exported from the UK and return within 3 years of export. Additionally, for VAT RGR to apply, the exporter and importer must be the same person and any VAT due must have been previously paid in the UK or EU.
The Government has recognised the challenges faced by owners of goods including pleasure craft owners in returning their possessions to GB before the end of the TP in order to qualify for Returned Goods Relief (RGR). Accordingly, there will be a twelve month period of grace so that goods that have been outside the UK and located in the EU at the end of the TP can return to the UK in 2021 and benefit from RGR, subject to the other conditions for relief being met.
If the goods return after this date and they have been outside of the UK for more than three years, customs duties, including VAT, may become due.
To provide an exception to these rules for the pleasure craft sector goes further than the provision of transitional arrangements for goods returning to the UK and would apply a special treatment to pleasure craft which is not available to other goods in free circulation in the EU at the end of the TP. The Government does not consider that such special treatment can be justified."
The above guidance suggests that Returned Goods Relief will ONLY be applicable to those UK-based owners who RETURN with their yachts within the given time frame and therefore the boat must have been in the UK originally within this timeframe, in the same ownership as is now bringing her back. This is massively far-reaching as it essentially penalises any UK national who bought their boat in Europe and has kept it out there. Even though they made the purchase legitimately as a member of the EU28, the HMRC policy makers feel that this is justification to charge UK VAT again if the boat returns, either in this ownership, or a new ownership. From reading the notes above, this would also extend to a boats originally UK VAT-paid. I can see this being extensively challenged in the courts as it represents double taxation.
As I mentioned above, over the past months, I have spent more time than is really healthy dealing with HMRC and also Trading Standards to try to get my head around where we are, and where we are going.
Edited by Yacht Broker on Sunday 13th December 16:39
Edited by Yacht Broker on Sunday 13th December 17:02
As for DoC and other pieces of paper, do you accept that most boats from 5 years old, should be annually re-examined (MOT?) to maintain their Cat A,B,.. certification of conformity? How many boats, that are privately owned, are never properly maintained to comply with their original certification category? To suggest that they were fine when launched and 10 years or less down the line, are perfectly fine to go offshore because they have a CE plate screwed to the hull is simply BS. And to suggest that boats built outside the EU need to 'comply with the RCD regs' is laughable!
Moving on to TS and HMRC, there is no doubt they will simply follow the easiest route by adopting the current EU regs and charges, and I have no doubt, they will take every opportunity to charge boat owners again if they can get away with it! I trust the marine industry will be lobbying Govt to make changes?
I imagine there are many British registered yachts in the EU which have never come close to UK shores, and I hope that they will have a dispensation after 31/12, but we are now entering a 'new now' and all of us need to understand this. The RYA and others have been warning of this scenario for a year or more, so it should come as no surprise!
If, in the future, yachts built in the USA are treated the same as 'importing' ones built in the EU, or elsewhere, this is a good thing IMHO. We should adopt a more 'world view' of build quality and safety standards, and not a false set of regulations that suit the European mass market boatbuilders.
I am, of course, a single voice on a motoring forum and one that is hoping to pick up a bargain Island Packet before I am too old to go collect it from the other side of the pond!!
P
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