Naval vessels & The Bosporus
Discussion
What with all the goings-on in and around Ukraine, I expect there will be a lot of Naval activity in the Black Sea in the coming weeks. Does Turkey (as a member of NATO) have any say in what passes through The Bosporus? Could they refuse access to warships or submarines, if they saw fit? Also it is apparently very narrow: can all large naval vessels pass through safely?
The Bosphorus is handled by the Montreux Convention (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits)
This states that Turkey has full control over the straights, including the right to prevent the passage of foreign warships. The Convention does bind the Turkish government to provide free passage for merchant ships of all flags in peacetime, but if Turkey is in a state of war (or under the threat of war) it can reassert its right to control traffic through the Bosporus.
States on the Black Sea have certain privileges of transit under the Convention - Turkey can't block the passage of Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian etc. ships in peacetime. Warships of other nations (including the UK) have to provide notice of a planned transit which has to be approved by the Turkish government. There are annual limits on the tonnage of warship from any nation that can transit the Bosporus, which effectively prevents big stuff like aircraft carriers and missile cruisers making the passage, and no submarines built in the Black Sea are allowed out.
This states that Turkey has full control over the straights, including the right to prevent the passage of foreign warships. The Convention does bind the Turkish government to provide free passage for merchant ships of all flags in peacetime, but if Turkey is in a state of war (or under the threat of war) it can reassert its right to control traffic through the Bosporus.
States on the Black Sea have certain privileges of transit under the Convention - Turkey can't block the passage of Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian etc. ships in peacetime. Warships of other nations (including the UK) have to provide notice of a planned transit which has to be approved by the Turkish government. There are annual limits on the tonnage of warship from any nation that can transit the Bosporus, which effectively prevents big stuff like aircraft carriers and missile cruisers making the passage, and no submarines built in the Black Sea are allowed out.
2xChevrons said:
The Bosphorus is handled by the Montreux Convention (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits)
War tends to override peacetime agreements... Washington Treaty, Ribbentrop Pact etc.Anyone, what do we know or care? The most important thing in Britain, apparently, is what kind of cake Boris had a year ago.
100SRV said:
2xChevrons said:
no submarines built in the Black Sea are allowed out.
Interesting, I wonder how easy that is to enforce?Physical measure on the bed of the straits perhaps?
(Spoiler - they thought it would be impossible but just about pulled it off. The Bosporus is very busy as well as being shallow (13m) in some parts and narrow (700m) in other parts, just avoiding getting run down by commercial traffic would be a huge challenge let alone trying to be undetected.)
DaveyBoyWonder said:
Given the size of the black sea, isn't it weird that subs would be built just to be used within it if they can't (legally) get out?
They aren't. No submarines have been built in Black Sea shipyards since the 1950s.The Russian Black Sea Fleet Kilos were built in Northern/Eastern Russia shipyards. Turkey's boats were built in Germany.
The Montreux Treaty allows Black Sea states to take delivery of boats built elsewhere via the Bosporus or for boats built elsewhere to transit the Bosporus to go elsewhere for maintenance. USNI article linked below on how Russia deployed its Black Sea based Kilos to Syria arguably (well ok, blatantly) in contravention of the Treaty.
https://news.usni.org/2020/07/08/russian-black-sea...
Edited by Seight_Returns on Thursday 27th January 11:20
Seight_Returns said:
Read Patrick Robinson's "HMS Unseen" to get a view on the practicality or otherwise of transiting the Bosporus undetected in a submerged submarine. Fiction obviously, but co-written with Sandy Woodward who knew a bit about submarines.
(Spoiler - they thought it would be impossible but just about pulled it off. The Bosporus is very busy as well as being shallow (13m) in some parts and narrow (700m) in other parts, just avoiding getting run down by commercial traffic would be a huge challenge let alone trying to be undetected.)
Spoiler, fiction has no bearing on whether it's actually possible. Reality would be very different, and they would not be able to "pull it off". For a start, they would need to get to the Bosphorus without being detected and they would need to navigate the Dardanelles first. The two straits are strategically and economically vital; therefore, Turkish navy keeps both under constant surveillence. A mackerel would find it difficult to pass without being detected.(Spoiler - they thought it would be impossible but just about pulled it off. The Bosporus is very busy as well as being shallow (13m) in some parts and narrow (700m) in other parts, just avoiding getting run down by commercial traffic would be a huge challenge let alone trying to be undetected.)
Then there are the currents, particularly in the Bosphorus. There's a fast north to south surface current, a deep opposing countercurrent, and consequently, powerful deep and surface swirls and eddies. There's a reason why the Bosphorus is known as one of the most treacherous waterways in the world. The currents are powerful enough to toss massive oil tankers around like toys let alone a submarine. There are no charts available for currents in either of the Straits; or rather, the Turkish Navy and pilot captains don't share their knowledge (probably for state security reasons). A submerged submarine, especially one with a foreign captain who's never transited the Bosphorus, doesn't know the topology and has no idea about the currents let alone the sudden changes in different sections, would be flung around like a butterfly in a tornado. They'd either make enough racket to be discovered, sink, or maybe even both if they end up colliding with another vessel due to the currents.
All in all, a submarine making a submerged, undetected pass through a total of 100 km of narrow straits which are some of the world's busiest (3 to 4 times as busy as Panama and Suez) and most difficult to navigate waterways, and which are also under heavy surveillence is simply not possible.
Edited for a typo.
Edited by QuickQuack on Thursday 27th January 13:11
QuickQuack said:
Seight_Returns said:
Read Patrick Robinson's "HMS Unseen" to get a view on the practicality or otherwise of transiting the Bosporus undetected in a submerged submarine. Fiction obviously, but co-written with Sandy Woodward who knew a bit about submarines.
(Spoiler - they thought it would be impossible but just about pulled it off. The Bosporus is very busy as well as being shallow (13m) in some parts and narrow (700m) in other parts, just avoiding getting run down by commercial traffic would be a huge challenge let alone trying to be undetected.)
Spoiler, fiction has no bearing on whether it's actually possible. Reality would be very different, and they would not be able to "pull it off". For a start, they would need to get to the Bosphorus without being detected and they would need to navigate the Dardanelles first. The two straits are strategically and economically vital; therefore, Turkish navy keeps both under constant surveillence. A mackerel would find it difficult to pass without being detected.(Spoiler - they thought it would be impossible but just about pulled it off. The Bosporus is very busy as well as being shallow (13m) in some parts and narrow (700m) in other parts, just avoiding getting run down by commercial traffic would be a huge challenge let alone trying to be undetected.)
Then there are the currents, particularly in the Bosphorus. There's a fast north to south surface current, a deep opposing countercurrent, and consequently, powerful deep and surface swirls and eddies. There's a reason why the Bosphorus is known as one of the most treacherous waterways in the world. The currents are powerful enough to toss massive oil tankers around like toys let alone a submarine. There are no charts available for currents in either of the Straits; or rather, the Turkish Navy and pilot captains don't share their knowledge (probably for state security reasons). A submerged submarine, especially one with a foreign captain who's never transited the Bosphorus, doesn't know the topology and has no idea about the currents let alone the sudden changes in different sections, would be flung around like a butterfly in a tornado. They'd either make enough racket to be discovered, sink, or maybe even both if they end up colliding with another vessel due to the currents.
All in all, a submarine making a submerged, undetected pass through a total of 100 km of narrow straits which are some of the world's busiest (3 to 4 times as busy as Panama and Suez) and most difficult to navigate waterways, and which are also under heavy surveillence is simply not possible.
Edited for a typo.
Edited by QuickQuack on Thursday 27th January 13:11
Seight_Returns said:
DaveyBoyWonder said:
Given the size of the black sea, isn't it weird that subs would be built just to be used within it if they can't (legally) get out?
They aren't. No submarines have been built in Black Sea shipyards since the 1950s.The Russian Black Sea Fleet Kilos were built in Northern/Eastern Russia shipyards. Turkey's boats were built in Germany.
The Montreux Treaty allows Black Sea states to take delivery of boats built elsewhere via the Bosporus or for boats built elsewhere to transit the Bosporus to go elsewhere for maintenance. USNI article linked below on how Russia deployed its Black Sea based Kilos to Syria arguably (well ok, blatantly) in contravention of the Treaty.
https://news.usni.org/2020/07/08/russian-black-sea...
QuickQuack said:
Spoiler, fiction has no bearing on whether it's actually possible. Reality would be very different, and they would not be able to "pull it off". For a start, they would need to get to the Bosphorus without being detected and they would need to navigate the Dardanelles first. The two straits are strategically and economically vital; therefore, Turkish navy keeps both under constant surveillence. A mackerel would find it difficult to pass without being detected.
And if the Russian navy should decide to pile through the Bosphorus in broad daylight, what are the Turks going to do? Open fire?Simpo Two said:
And if the Russian navy should decide to pile through the Bosphorus in broad daylight, what are the Turks going to do? Open fire?
Errr, yes! What else would a sovereign state do? 
The Turkish Navy isn't as weak as you seem to think, and the Russian Black Sea Fleet is nowhere near as strong as you imagine it to be. The Bosphorus is a 31km long, fortified, narrow, shallow, crowded waterway with fast flowing, unpredictable, uncharted currents which have sunk countless ships. The Turks would easily sink every single ship that tries to pass through.And besides, do you think that'd happen without warning? Does the Russian Navy have some stealth technology to hide battleships as if they're fishing boats, or can they travel at supersonic speeds and just turn up unannounced at the Bosphorus at a moment's notice?
NATO keeps a very close eye on what's going on in the region. The moment a single Russian Navy vessel is heading towards Turkish territorial waters, let alone the whole Navy starting to move as a joint force from their base, the alliance would pick this up. If the ships entered Turkish territorial waters, they'd be declaring war on NATO. That wouldn't be a clever move, and it wouldn't have the slightest chance of getting anywhere near Bosphorus.But feel free to live in your fantasy land.
QuickQuack said:
Simpo Two said:
And if the Russian navy should decide to pile through the Bosphorus in broad daylight, what are the Turks going to do? Open fire?
Errr, yes! What else would a sovereign state do? The Turkish Navy isn't as weak as you seem to think, and the Russian Black Sea Fleet is nowhere near as strong as you imagine it to be. The Bosphorus is a 31km long, fortified, narrow, shallow, crowded waterway with fast flowing, unpredictable, uncharted currents which have sunk countless ships. The Turks would easily sink every single ship that tries to pass through.The real question is what constitutes an act of war, who plays the biggest bluff and who fires first.
What will most likely happen is that Russia will do what it wants with Ukraine, the West will grumble a lot, there will be chest-beating and then it will all go away.
Simpo Two said:
Well somebody's living in fantasy land. You don't start sinking another country's ships just because they're in your waters.
The real question is what constitutes an act of war, who plays the biggest bluff and who fires first.
What will most likely happen is that Russia will do what it wants with Ukraine, the West will grumble a lot, there will be chest-beating and then it will all go away.
The fantasy is your suggestion that the entire Russian Navy might turn up to force their way through the Bosphorus. You obviously have no idea about the geopolitical power balance of the region or the historical background to the Treaty of Montreux. It's a bit more complex than the Wikipedia page. The real question is what constitutes an act of war, who plays the biggest bluff and who fires first.
What will most likely happen is that Russia will do what it wants with Ukraine, the West will grumble a lot, there will be chest-beating and then it will all go away.
For a start, Turkey only needs to perceive an act of aggression to deny passage to warships including Black Sea states, they don't need to be at war with that country. Only 1 foreign warship can be in the Bosphorus at any time, the Russians can't just turn up and pile through. They have to give 8 days' notice of their intent to cross. Any violations of these and at that instant, passage through the Bosphorus would be denied because they would be acts of aggression. Turks don't need sink any ships, they can just deny and block passage through. What are the Russians going to do, fire at the Turks? That would immediately escalate the whole thing to an act of war. Good luck with getting out of that.
Ukraine is nowhere near the Bosphorus, and the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy is right there already. It doesn't need to go through Bosphorus. Ukraine has nothing to do with the Russian Navy going through the Bosphorus. Bringing that into the discussion is a complete and utter strawman argument. Whatever the Russian Black Sea Fleet does to Ukraine has no bearing on passages of warships through Bosphorus.
In summary
1) Turkey has absolute sovereignty over both Bosphorus and Dardanelles Straits. Both are heavily fortified and under constant military surveillance;
2) passage of warships and submarines through the Bosphorus is tightly regulated (by the Treaty of Montreux signed in 1936), and enforced by Turkey;
3) Turkey does have some significant leeway in how they interlrent and enforce some clauses and annexes;
4) it's impossible to cross the Bosphorus unseen/undetected with a submerged submarine;
5) Treaty of Montreux held during WW II and the Russians didn't try to force their way through even back then, or during the Cold War;
6) Russian Navy isn't going to try to cross it altogether by force, ever. To suggest that Russians would risk war and losing pretty much all their ships is the stuff of badly thought out fiction. Consequently, nobody needs to bluff, fire any shots or sink any boats.
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