Red Arrows future secured
Discussion
This is good news for the Reds. I thought I read somewhere that they were getting T2's but who knows.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/mod-invests-6...
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/mod-invests-6...
Trevatanus said:
This is good news for the Reds. I thought I read somewhere that they were getting T2's but who knows.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/mod-invests-6...
This is not news at all...........the MOD said a year or more ago, when they announced the OSD of the Hawk T.1 was today, that the Scarlet Sparrows were secure out to 2030, largely as a result of the 70 odd T.1's being retired today would mean the Reds fleet would be cherry picked from the lowest hour of all the fleet, plus spares a/c for attrition (and lost of spares recovered from the rest being scrapped) that would see the Reds out to 2030.https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/mod-invests-6...
The Reds won't be getting T.2's as MOD would need to almost double the amount of T.2's to cover Reds use.......and the T.2's in use are not MOD IIRC, as they are part of the civvie owned flying training contract, thats why you never see a T.2 Hawk aero's display.
T.2 for Reds is not going to happen.
What happens to Reds after 2030 is anyone's guess, but I and many others suspect that will be the end at that point.
Seight_Returns said:
Are any of the retired T1s going to be sold to private/commercial operators ?
Have heard rumours that the two commercial operators of ex-mil a/c might try to bid for some, but the rumour was that MOD were not offering any for sale, as they needed to cherry pick the best for the Reds and spares recover the rest to support the Reds fleet out to 2030.Seight_Returns said:
Has the CAA indicated whether they're willing to allow them to be operated in UK airspace on the civil register ?
Not a chance of that happening I would think given some of the MAA issues with Hawk in past decade or more.
The Saudi's have a whole heap of low-hour airframes just sat in the desert doing nothing which the Saudis were actively looking to sell to anyone but having been sat unflown in the desert for at least 5 years without any maintenance I wouldn't like to buy them.
The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
aeropilot said:
Seight_Returns said:
Are any of the retired T1s going to be sold to private/commercial operators ?
Have heard rumours that the two commercial operators of ex-mil a/c might try to bid for some, but the rumour was that MOD were not offering any for sale, as they needed to cherry pick the best for the Reds and spares recover the rest to support the Reds fleet out to 2030.Seight_Returns said:
Has the CAA indicated whether they're willing to allow them to be operated in UK airspace on the civil register ?
Not a chance of that happening I would think given some of the MAA issues with Hawk in past decade or more.DavieBNL said:
aeropilot said:
Seight_Returns said:
Are any of the retired T1s going to be sold to private/commercial operators ?
Have heard rumours that the two commercial operators of ex-mil a/c might try to bid for some, but the rumour was that MOD were not offering any for sale, as they needed to cherry pick the best for the Reds and spares recover the rest to support the Reds fleet out to 2030.Seight_Returns said:
Has the CAA indicated whether they're willing to allow them to be operated in UK airspace on the civil register ?
Not a chance of that happening I would think given some of the MAA issues with Hawk in past decade or more.aeropilot said:
And we've had half a dozen BAC Lightnings given G-registrations over the years, plus a few other 'complex' fast jets that were put on the UK register but sat for years as CAA were never going to allow them flown......
Agree that we will never see a CAA regulated Lighning take to the skies again - BAC in their day (60's, 70's?) did briefly have 3 or 4 flying on the register, but they were different times and they did build them.I am a bit more optimistic we will eventually see a civvie Hawk flying (probably not doing low-level aerobatics at displays), it's a pretty simple jet all-in-all but still has the bang seat issue, but time will tell. I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
DavieBNL said:
I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
And yet........the CAA did allow for the three ex-RAe Bucc's to be put on the civvie register and flown on test flights in the UK in preparation for their long transit flights down to South Africa for delivery to Thunder City......so, it's not exactly a first.HHA always said thought that, it would only fly if they could get a Govt contract for it's specific use, in which case it would go back on the mil register anyway, and that's never been forthcoming, and with Draken Int muscling in on that side of the business even more, I doubt it ever will.
I wonder what HHA will do with it soon (and the Su-22 etc) as they are I believe looking for a new home, given Scampton closes as a RAF base at the end of this year.
CrutyRammers said:
Muzzer79 said:
aeropilot said:
What happens to Reds after 2030 is anyone's guess, but I and many others suspect that will be the end at that point.
Out of curiosity, why are the reasons for that?Cost? Safety?
Back in the 70's and early 80's, the Reds were 10 aorcraft out of a 100+ fleet or Gnats (and then Hawks) operated by the CFS.....and the RAF had nearly 50 active airfields in the early 70's, and over 30 in the early 80's......
Its now less than 10, and only 3 front line fast jet airfields, plus all the AT fleet crammed into one single runway base, plus Waddo. That's it.
All the T.2's (a third of the number of from the CFS days) are at Valley.....and the whole of the RAF training is outsourced anyway, the old CFS is long gone, as are all the MU's etc.
The RAF of today is a fraction of what it was 35 years ago, let alone 50 years ago when the Reds were wowing crowds at airshows all over the UK.
If you look at it in real terms, they simply have no place (as a 9-ship display) in a RAF of the size and structure that it is today.
IanH755 said:
The Saudi's have a whole heap of low-hour airframes just sat in the desert doing nothing which the Saudis were actively looking to sell to anyone but having been sat unflown in the desert for at least 5 years without any maintenance I wouldn't like to buy them.
The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
The Indian ones do have smoke pods but its different configuration to the Saudi and Reds version. Im close to the smoke generation side of life.The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
petop said:
IanH755 said:
The Saudi's have a whole heap of low-hour airframes just sat in the desert doing nothing which the Saudis were actively looking to sell to anyone but having been sat unflown in the desert for at least 5 years without any maintenance I wouldn't like to buy them.
The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
The Indian ones do have smoke pods but its different configuration to the Saudi and Reds version. Im close to the smoke generation side of life.The Saudi's are also in the same space as the Reds as their Green Hawks team also uses T1 equivalent Hawks and they're looking to swap to T2 "display only" equivalents before 2030 but so far no T2 equivalent users have paid BAES to mock something up. IIRC the Indian AF use their T2 equivalent for displays but these are "Normal Use" aircraft with no "display" mods done to lighten, increase thrust, fix the slower roll rate or add a smoke pod etc.
TBF those wing mounted pods are probably ideal vs the time/cost it would take for the amount of modification the T2 would need to have a central jet exhaust spray-bar system like the older T1's have.
Edited for clarity.
Edited by IanH755 on Monday 4th April 17:48
DavieBNL said:
Agree that we will never see a CAA regulated Lighning take to the skies again - BAC in their day (60's, 70's?) did briefly have 3 or 4 flying on the register, but they were different times and they did build them.
I am a bit more optimistic we will eventually see a civvie Hawk flying (probably not doing low-level aerobatics at displays), it's a pretty simple jet all-in-all but still has the bang seat issue, but time will tell. I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
There was also a Harrier flying as G VTOL, but again operated by the manufacturer. I am a bit more optimistic we will eventually see a civvie Hawk flying (probably not doing low-level aerobatics at displays), it's a pretty simple jet all-in-all but still has the bang seat issue, but time will tell. I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
Dr Jekyll said:
DavieBNL said:
Agree that we will never see a CAA regulated Lighning take to the skies again - BAC in their day (60's, 70's?) did briefly have 3 or 4 flying on the register, but they were different times and they did build them.
I am a bit more optimistic we will eventually see a civvie Hawk flying (probably not doing low-level aerobatics at displays), it's a pretty simple jet all-in-all but still has the bang seat issue, but time will tell. I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
There was also a Harrier flying as G VTOL, but again operated by the manufacturer. I am a bit more optimistic we will eventually see a civvie Hawk flying (probably not doing low-level aerobatics at displays), it's a pretty simple jet all-in-all but still has the bang seat issue, but time will tell. I think the award for the most optimistic registering at the moment goes to HHA with G-HHAA - an S2B Buccaneer, good luck with that!
IanH755 said:
I've seen the mid-wing pylon mounted "self contained" pod that the synchro-pair use (maybe others within the team too?) but I haven't seen any centreline pods or jet exhaust sprayer nozzles.
TBF those wing mounted pods are probably ideal vs the time/cost it would take for the amount of modification the T2 would need to have a central jet exhaust spray-bar system like the older T1's have.
I didn't know the Synchro-Pair had a different smoke generation setup than the rest of the team.TBF those wing mounted pods are probably ideal vs the time/cost it would take for the amount of modification the T2 would need to have a central jet exhaust spray-bar system like the older T1's have.
Is that because they need an off centreline smoke setup to avoid blinding the other aircraft in the opposition passes ?
Do the synchro pair aircraft have the centreline pod as well ? What happens if one of the syncro-pair goes tech - does the "spare" Red10 aircraft have both systems fitted ?
Seight_Returns said:
IanH755 said:
I've seen the mid-wing pylon mounted "self contained" pod that the synchro-pair use (maybe others within the team too?) but I haven't seen any centreline pods or jet exhaust sprayer nozzles.
TBF those wing mounted pods are probably ideal vs the time/cost it would take for the amount of modification the T2 would need to have a central jet exhaust spray-bar system like the older T1's have.
I didn't know the Synchro-Pair had a different smoke generation setup than the rest of the team.TBF those wing mounted pods are probably ideal vs the time/cost it would take for the amount of modification the T2 would need to have a central jet exhaust spray-bar system like the older T1's have.
Is that because they need an off centreline smoke setup to avoid blinding the other aircraft in the opposition passes ?
Do the synchro pair aircraft have the centreline pod as well ? What happens if one of the syncro-pair goes tech - does the "spare" Red10 aircraft have both systems fitted ?
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