Inside Standedge railway and canal tunnels.

[Wacky Racer]

Absolutely fascinating video, some incredible footage, I have been through them several times before they were sealed up in the 1980's.

Martin's video's are first class, lots of interesting subjects, for example, see his one on the old Belah railway viaduct on The Stainmore line near Kirkby Stephen. (Which I visited last week.)

Linky:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xbtXYAlKhc&t=...

[Condi]

Always amazes me people bemoan the fact that the UK doesn't do big engineering or infrastructure projects any more, and what happened to the "can do" attitude of Victorian engineers...






...and then the same people complain what a waste of money HS2 is.


Many of the original railway companies went bust before even completing the infrastructure works, and plenty of those who did manage to get a working line then struggled to make a profit.

[Simpo Two]

Condi said:

Always amazes me people bemoan the fact that the UK doesn't do big engineering or infrastructure projects any more, and what happened to the "can do" attitude of Victorian engineers...

...and then the same people complain what a waste of money HS2 is.

Many of the original railway companies went bust before even completing the infrastructure works, and plenty of those who did manage to get a working line then struggled to make a profit.

The Victorians revolutionised transport (and the Georgians before them for canals), and did so with private enterprise as you say. By contrast HS2 is taxpayer-funded and increasingly unnecessary with WFH. Does anyone really need to get somewhere 20 mins sooner? And if so, at what price? Let's not forget the country is a bit screwed financially at present after Covid and now £100Bn to help towards energy costs as well. I can't find any rational case for HS2 other than 'woo'.

[Taita]

Simpo Two said:

Condi said:

Always amazes me people bemoan the fact that the UK doesn't do big engineering or infrastructure projects any more, and what happened to the "can do" attitude of Victorian engineers...

...and then the same people complain what a waste of money HS2 is.

Many of the original railway companies went bust before even completing the infrastructure works, and plenty of those who did manage to get a working line then struggled to make a profit.

The Victorians revolutionised transport (and the Georgians before them for canals), and did so with private enterprise as you say. By contrast HS2 is taxpayer-funded and increasingly unnecessary with WFH. Does anyone really need to get somewhere 20 mins sooner? And if so, at what price? Let's not forget the country is a bit screwed financially at present after Covid and now £100Bn to help towards energy costs as well. I can't find any rational case for HS2 other than 'woo'.

Its not about the 20mins, its about capacity on West Coast Main Line

[Condi]

Simpo Two said:

The Victorians revolutionised transport (and the Georgians before them for canals), and did so with private enterprise as you say. By contrast HS2 is taxpayer-funded and increasingly unnecessary with WFH. Does anyone really need to get somewhere 20 mins sooner? And if so, at what price? Let's not forget the country is a bit screwed financially at present after Covid and now £100Bn to help towards energy costs as well. I can't find any rational case for HS2 other than 'woo'.

The business case is that our existing main lines are running at capacity and it is becoming increasingly inefficient and complicated to mix increasing levels of slow freight trains with express long distance trains. By removing the fast trains from the existing lines then you end up with a much more manageable mix of fright and slower stopping services on the existing lines and the faster traffic travels on dedicated lines.

There is always an argument not to do something, but we do need to invest for the future. 10 years ago Thames Water wanted to build a new reservoir to help store more drinking water, it was refused on the basis the planners didn't think it was required at the time - 10 years later and it would have been a very useful asset, instead we have hosepipe bans. Equally no new nuclear plants have been finished in nearly 30 years as a result of government's kicking the can down the road - too expensive, not required, cheaper gas etc. We will now go from having 8 nuclear plants working 2 years ago to having only 1 working before the latest new one Hinkley Point C is finished in 2026/7. Another 5 or 6 operating would have been really useful in helping to lower energy costs now. There is always an argument not to do it, but when you need it you can't just build infrastructure overnight.

[bigpriest]

Wacky Racer said:

Absolutely fascinating video, some incredible footage, I have been through them several times before they were sealed up in the 1980's.

Martin's video's are first class, lots of interesting subjects, for example, see his one on the old Belah railway viaduct on The Stainmore line near Kirkby Stephen. (Which I visited last week.)

Linky:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xbtXYAlKhc&t=...

Here's the canal journey through the tunnel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETwZuu9yZ0

[demic]

I’ve been lucky enough to walk through one of the disused railway bores (legit through work). Surreal, awe inspiring and takes a long time! The “Cathedral” is very impressive. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of the walk?

I drive trains through the current tunnel, it surprises me how dry it is inside compared to a lot of tunnels. Usually you go from bright sunshine at the Marsden end and emerge into drizzle on the Diggle side.

Edited by demic on Thursday 25th August 20:53

[Simpo Two]

Condi said:

Simpo Two said:

The Victorians revolutionised transport (and the Georgians before them for canals), and did so with private enterprise as you say. By contrast HS2 is taxpayer-funded and increasingly unnecessary with WFH. Does anyone really need to get somewhere 20 mins sooner? And if so, at what price? Let's not forget the country is a bit screwed financially at present after Covid and now £100Bn to help towards energy costs as well. I can't find any rational case for HS2 other than 'woo'.

The business case is that our existing main lines are running at capacity and it is becoming increasingly inefficient and complicated to mix increasing levels of slow freight trains with express long distance trains. By removing the fast trains from the existing lines then you end up with a much more manageable mix of fright and slower stopping services on the existing lines and the faster traffic travels on dedicated lines.

There is always an argument not to do something, but we do need to invest for the future. 10 years ago Thames Water wanted to build a new reservoir to help store more drinking water, it was refused on the basis the planners didn't think it was required at the time - 10 years later and it would have been a very useful asset, instead we have hosepipe bans. Equally no new nuclear plants have been finished in nearly 30 years as a result of government's kicking the can down the road - too expensive, not required, cheaper gas etc. We will now go from having 8 nuclear plants working 2 years ago to having only 1 working before the latest new one Hinkley Point C is finished in 2026/7. Another 5 or 6 operating would have been really useful in helping to lower energy costs now. There is always an argument not to do it, but when you need it you can't just build infrastructure overnight.

Well, that's a fair and interesting point. But does the plan to boost capacity need to be super-fast with a whole new line? Look at the airlines - nobody wants fast, they want cheap. If more trains/carriages can't cope, how about raising the bridges and having double-decker carriages? Not cheap, but probably cheap-er...

Or just raise the ticket price to reduce demand...

Sorry for rambling OT!

[2xChevrons]

Simpo Two said:

Well, that's a fair and interesting point. But does the plan to boost capacity need to be super-fast with a whole new line? Look at the airlines - nobody wants fast, they want cheap. If more trains/carriages can't cope, how about raising the bridges and having double-decker carriages? Not cheap, but probably cheap-er...

Or just raise the ticket price to reduce demand...

Sorry for rambling OT!

It's absolutely not cheaper - think of the basic cost of raising every bridge, re-boring every tunnel, lifting every overhead wire and so on along the length of the WCML (let alone the entire trunk network). Then add to that the economic cost of disruption to the existing service as the lines are closed to carry out the work. It would dwarf the cost of HS2.

And the issue of capacity isn't really how many people we can cram onto the trains, it's the amount of trains per mile and per hour that the railway can accommodate. The WCML is (was...? Let's see how it pans out...) basically full in terms of long-distance passenger trains, local passenger trains and freight trains as it is, and there is also no capacity for adding more connecting 'branch' services off the 'trunk'.

The only solution is (let's just stick with 'is' for the sake of the discussion) brand new capacity - new railway lines. Adding extra running lines alongside the existing ones runs into similar cost and disruption issues as your idea of increasing the loading gauge to fit bigger trains. Building a new railway for fast passenger services, freeing up the existing line for local services and freight, is the preferable solution. And once you're building 'a new railway', the extra cost of building it to high-speed specifications is essentially negligible.

[SpeckledJim]

Simpo Two said:

Condi said:

Simpo Two said:

The Victorians revolutionised transport (and the Georgians before them for canals), and did so with private enterprise as you say. By contrast HS2 is taxpayer-funded and increasingly unnecessary with WFH. Does anyone really need to get somewhere 20 mins sooner? And if so, at what price? Let's not forget the country is a bit screwed financially at present after Covid and now £100Bn to help towards energy costs as well. I can't find any rational case for HS2 other than 'woo'.

The business case is that our existing main lines are running at capacity and it is becoming increasingly inefficient and complicated to mix increasing levels of slow freight trains with express long distance trains. By removing the fast trains from the existing lines then you end up with a much more manageable mix of fright and slower stopping services on the existing lines and the faster traffic travels on dedicated lines.

There is always an argument not to do something, but we do need to invest for the future. 10 years ago Thames Water wanted to build a new reservoir to help store more drinking water, it was refused on the basis the planners didn't think it was required at the time - 10 years later and it would have been a very useful asset, instead we have hosepipe bans. Equally no new nuclear plants have been finished in nearly 30 years as a result of government's kicking the can down the road - too expensive, not required, cheaper gas etc. We will now go from having 8 nuclear plants working 2 years ago to having only 1 working before the latest new one Hinkley Point C is finished in 2026/7. Another 5 or 6 operating would have been really useful in helping to lower energy costs now. There is always an argument not to do it, but when you need it you can't just build infrastructure overnight.

Well, that's a fair and interesting point. But does the plan to boost capacity need to be super-fast with a whole new line? Look at the airlines - nobody wants fast, they want cheap. If more trains/carriages can't cope, how about raising the bridges and having double-decker carriages? Not cheap, but probably cheap-er...

Or just raise the ticket price to reduce demand...

Sorry for rambling OT!

Yes, it does. Because sending a fast train down the line causes bloody chaos to the rest of the other services as they all have to get out of its way with plenty of time to spare. Like sending an ambulance through a traffic jam.

Taking the fast trains off to their own line makes a huge difference to the capacity on the other lines where trains are doing a more similar pace.

[Simpo Two]

Well gentlemen, if what you say is true then there is no alternative. But it should still wait until we have the bigger issues sorted out. A bit of congestion on trains is one thing, £4,000+ fuel bills for every household is rather more pressing.

[darkyoung1000]

Simpo Two said:

Well gentlemen, if what you say is true then there is no alternative. But it should still wait until we have the bigger issues sorted out. A bit of congestion on trains is one thing, £4,000+ fuel bills for every household is rather more pressing.

The O/T stuff first….the fuel has to get to the power stations somehow in order for everyone to have electricity. Most of that is by rail (look at the flooding in February/March 2020 around Drax and how close it came to shutdown).

As to Standedge, all bores are incredible. Dead straight and it’s amazing to stand in The Cathedral and see a dot of light a mile and half away in either direction. Not in bad nick either compared to some other tunnels! I think one of the Portillo Great Railway Journeys series had an episode filmed in there too.

[aeropilot]

Simpo Two said:

Well gentlemen, if what you say is true then there is no alternative. But it should still wait until we have the bigger issues sorted out. A bit of congestion on trains is one thing, £4,000+ fuel bills for every household is rather more pressing.

So, what do you propose to do, stop all work on HS2.....which would cost even more money in terminated contracts and waste!
HS2 has been 'on the go' as a live project for over 3 years, long before even Covid happened, let alone Russia invading Ukraine.

[Simpo Two]

aeropilot said:

Simpo Two said:

Well gentlemen, if what you say is true then there is no alternative. But it should still wait until we have the bigger issues sorted out. A bit of congestion on trains is one thing, £4,000+ fuel bills for every household is rather more pressing.

So, what do you propose to do, stop all work on HS2.....which would cost even more money in terminated contracts and waste!
HS2 has been 'on the go' as a live project for over 3 years, long before even Covid happened, let alone Russia invading Ukraine.

Well then, we just print more money. Solves every problem.

[anonymous-user]

demic said:

I’ve been lucky enough to walk through one of the disused railway bores (legit through work). Surreal, awe inspiring and takes a long time! The “Cathedral” is very impressive. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of the walk?

I drive trains through the current tunnel, it surprises me how dry it is inside compared to a lot of tunnels. Usually you go from bright sunshine at the Marsden end and emerge into drizzle on the Diggle side.

I remember backing my old small cement mixer down the disused railway tunnels about 20 odd years ago from the southern end whilst they were doing some works to the canal or something.

Had to wait for them to open the gates then back for what seemed like miles into the darkness, couldn't see beggar all except a bloke walking behind me with a torch.

It was very surreal as whilst they were moving the concrete about you could hear trains somewhere passing, very eerie.

Couldn't wait to get full beam on and fly back out of the place.

[mcdjl]

demic said:

I’ve been lucky enough to walk through one of the disused railway bores (legit through work). Surreal, awe inspiring and takes a long time! The “Cathedral” is very impressive. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of the walk?

I drive trains through the current tunnel, it surprises me how dry it is inside compared to a lot of tunnels. Usually you go from bright sunshine at the Marsden end and emerge into drizzle on the Diggle side.

Edited by demic on Thursday 25th August 20:53

Surprised no one else said it..... Yes please!

[Krikkit]

Taita said:

Its not about the 20mins, its about capacity on West Coast Main Line

Which isn't how it's been sold at all, everything is "it's a high speed rail link, shave 20 minutes from Birmingham to London"

[mattyprice4004]

mcdjl said:

demic said:

I’ve been lucky enough to walk through one of the disused railway bores (legit through work). Surreal, awe inspiring and takes a long time! The “Cathedral” is very impressive. If anyone is interested I can post some pictures of the walk?

I drive trains through the current tunnel, it surprises me how dry it is inside compared to a lot of tunnels. Usually you go from bright sunshine at the Marsden end and emerge into drizzle on the Diggle side.

Edited by demic on Thursday 25th August 20:53

Surprised no one else said it..... Yes please!

Seconded!

[demic]

speedyguy said:

I remember backing my old small cement mixer down the disused railway tunnels about 20 odd years ago from the southern end whilst they were doing some works to the canal or something.

Had to wait for them to open the gates then back for what seemed like miles into the darkness, couldn't see beggar all except a bloke walking behind me with a torch.

It was very surreal as whilst they were moving the concrete about you could hear trains somewhere passing, very eerie.

Couldn't wait to get full beam on and fly back out of the place.

The tunnels are all connected so the sound of the trains gets into the disused bores. Anyway so pics for those who wanted them. Taken with a phone camera using a mountain bike light to illuminate so not the best.

The walk was through the disused center bore.


Looking into the canal bore. It runs under the railway tunnels and there is a real risk of getting very wet if you choose the wrong connecting tunnel to escape!


Ominous!


Safe refuge
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/ioKFuzPD[/url]

Looking east towards Marsden


One of four emergency telephones linked to York ROC Huddersfield Panel.


Roof of the “Cathedral”


Pway man for scale





Looking west back toward Diggle


Wet ventilation shaft


Looking through to the live tunnel, Up Huddersfield line nearest (towards Manchester)


Life even in the darkness


Mileage and structure plates


Light at the end of the tunnel!


Portals at the Marsden end


Current Sectional Appendix instructions for the tunnel

[Wacky Racer]

Great photographs ^^^^^


Walked through both single tunnels umpteen times in the late seventies, even drove my car through to Marsden and back once before they were gated.