Flight delay, what s really going on here?
Discussion
I’m just limbering up for a bit of a fight with an holiday operator and I’d like to understand what’s really going on here as it has implications on a travel insurance claim.
Last Saturday we should have been on an 0600 departure from Birmingham to Salzburg, type was a B737-800. We were heavily delayed due to the weather at Salzburg, and obviously I cannot claim if it’s a weather event.
However, a rival airline, in a B737-MAX8, departed just 15 mins after our allocated departure slot and was on the ground in Salzburg on time.
Why? Presumably there’s no difference in ILS capability/decision height between the two types, and the LOWS METARS didn’t look significantly different all morning, it was basically no wind but the cloud on the deck.
The captain had mentioned “company decision” over the PA, do different airlines have different minima or something for an almost identical aircraft landing at the same airport?
Any views from a commercial pilot would be greatly appreciated (please no guesses from those not in the know) and please can you dumb it down so a PPL with only a basic level of understanding of instrument approaches (ie not certified) can understand it.
Thanks!
Last Saturday we should have been on an 0600 departure from Birmingham to Salzburg, type was a B737-800. We were heavily delayed due to the weather at Salzburg, and obviously I cannot claim if it’s a weather event.
However, a rival airline, in a B737-MAX8, departed just 15 mins after our allocated departure slot and was on the ground in Salzburg on time.
Why? Presumably there’s no difference in ILS capability/decision height between the two types, and the LOWS METARS didn’t look significantly different all morning, it was basically no wind but the cloud on the deck.
The captain had mentioned “company decision” over the PA, do different airlines have different minima or something for an almost identical aircraft landing at the same airport?
Any views from a commercial pilot would be greatly appreciated (please no guesses from those not in the know) and please can you dumb it down so a PPL with only a basic level of understanding of instrument approaches (ie not certified) can understand it.
Thanks!
Could be as simple as the weather being so marginal that one company didn t fancy taking the risk of a diversion and all the mess that that causes. And the other fancied their chances.
Or one might not be approved for Cat II approaches.
And some airports have approach minimums based on missed approach climb gradients; the other airline might have had better performance on the day allowing them to accept a lower minimum.
Edit: And just to add, some ATC units won’t even let you depart to ‘go and have a look’ if they have low visibility procedures in force and you’re not Cat II approved. I’ve been held on the ground and given massive slots by the Swiss on a few occasions, although the crew would likely have mentioned this as it’s a much easier excuse!
Or one might not be approved for Cat II approaches.
And some airports have approach minimums based on missed approach climb gradients; the other airline might have had better performance on the day allowing them to accept a lower minimum.
Edit: And just to add, some ATC units won’t even let you depart to ‘go and have a look’ if they have low visibility procedures in force and you’re not Cat II approved. I’ve been held on the ground and given massive slots by the Swiss on a few occasions, although the crew would likely have mentioned this as it’s a much easier excuse!
Edited by Crumpet on Thursday 22 January 08:39
I would say Crumpet has covered it very well.
Salzburg has a special procedure for using lower minima, although higher than a lot of airports that are not surrounded by high terrain. It requires special authorisation from the authorities. Your carrier may not have that authorisation.
For a better understanding of the requirements see page 11-2a below
http://www.matraair.hu/charts/LOWS.pdf
Aircraft performance of a 737 Max is better than a 737-800, also ski flights have a much higher baggage weight due to the number of skis and boots.
Salzburg has a special procedure for using lower minima, although higher than a lot of airports that are not surrounded by high terrain. It requires special authorisation from the authorities. Your carrier may not have that authorisation.
For a better understanding of the requirements see page 11-2a below
http://www.matraair.hu/charts/LOWS.pdf
Aircraft performance of a 737 Max is better than a 737-800, also ski flights have a much higher baggage weight due to the number of skis and boots.
The guys above have largely covered it. I've no 737 experience but plenty taking a narrow body Airbus to destinations with similar restrictions.
You were probably limited by either
a) A combination of weather, aircraft weight and aircraft type that limited the climb rate so much during a single engine go around that the crew would have to use a higher minima for the approach and thus were confident that they'd be unable to continue the approach to a landing. (I know nothing specific about 738 vs 73Max performance but I'd be amazed if the latter doesn't climb notably better.)
b) a crew that weren't qualified to fly your aeroplane down to the lower minima because they hadn't received the specific Salzburg sim training required to do so.
c) an ops department that didn't want to risk a diversion
d) an aeroplane that was carrying some minor defect that meant it wasn't possible to operate it to those minima on that day.
Realistically, unless the airline tells you, it's going to be very difficult to work out which of the above was the cause of your delay but comfortably the most likely is a.
You were probably limited by either
a) A combination of weather, aircraft weight and aircraft type that limited the climb rate so much during a single engine go around that the crew would have to use a higher minima for the approach and thus were confident that they'd be unable to continue the approach to a landing. (I know nothing specific about 738 vs 73Max performance but I'd be amazed if the latter doesn't climb notably better.)
b) a crew that weren't qualified to fly your aeroplane down to the lower minima because they hadn't received the specific Salzburg sim training required to do so.
c) an ops department that didn't want to risk a diversion
d) an aeroplane that was carrying some minor defect that meant it wasn't possible to operate it to those minima on that day.
Realistically, unless the airline tells you, it's going to be very difficult to work out which of the above was the cause of your delay but comfortably the most likely is a.
OK thanks very much guys, really appreciate the clear explanation. So basically this is me with just enough knowledge to think I can start asking questions of the tour operator but not actually knowing nearly enough for those questions to be valid haha!
Hats off to you guys…I was looking out the window at the stunning VFR conditions above the clouds, as we descended into thick clag on the approach with bleddy mountains everywhere…pretty “exciting” really!
Hats off to you guys…I was looking out the window at the stunning VFR conditions above the clouds, as we descended into thick clag on the approach with bleddy mountains everywhere…pretty “exciting” really!
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