Why were WWII german fighters so unfriendly to fly(possibly)
Discussion
Ok a slightly misleading title, but bear with me.
I recently bought the flight sim IL46, as it was only a tenner, and it is reputed to have a decent flight model of the aircraft simulated.
After waiting for it to download, I've now played it and have a number of questions for those of you who do fly and know more about this era of aviation history.
The german fighters all seem far less benign than the British ones - the transition between control and spiralling to my death is extremely quick, unlike the Spits and Hurricanes which seem to give you more warning before falling out of the sky. So far I've not even managed to do a loop in a German plane without losing all control and going into a flat spin. Is this the reality?
Take the TA-152 (my favourite plane from that era). It's sole purpose seems to be to crash. It's nigh on impossible to get the thing in the air. Despite 500km/h showing it always goes into a flat spin when I try to loop it, or turn tightly to bring guns to bear on an enemy. You can't see out of it. And as for landing...well that's easy as I've always landed at 500kts in a ball of flames.
How did a bomber ever get shot down? Approaching from most angles, I seem to get riddled with bullets before I've managed to line up a shot and diving into a bomber formation, as per the tactics of the era is extremely difficult to a) get into position for, and b) almost impossible to actually hit anything with the speed differential.
Finally, how on earth did they keep track of who was shooting at whom? Granted, I'm looking for pixels, but most of the cockpit designs mean you can't see behind you.
If you haven't played it, I suggest you do. It'll give you a whole new level of respect for the lunatics who flew the aircraft on both sides. It certainly has me, with my couple of hours of flying time.
I recently bought the flight sim IL46, as it was only a tenner, and it is reputed to have a decent flight model of the aircraft simulated.
After waiting for it to download, I've now played it and have a number of questions for those of you who do fly and know more about this era of aviation history.
The german fighters all seem far less benign than the British ones - the transition between control and spiralling to my death is extremely quick, unlike the Spits and Hurricanes which seem to give you more warning before falling out of the sky. So far I've not even managed to do a loop in a German plane without losing all control and going into a flat spin. Is this the reality?
Take the TA-152 (my favourite plane from that era). It's sole purpose seems to be to crash. It's nigh on impossible to get the thing in the air. Despite 500km/h showing it always goes into a flat spin when I try to loop it, or turn tightly to bring guns to bear on an enemy. You can't see out of it. And as for landing...well that's easy as I've always landed at 500kts in a ball of flames.
How did a bomber ever get shot down? Approaching from most angles, I seem to get riddled with bullets before I've managed to line up a shot and diving into a bomber formation, as per the tactics of the era is extremely difficult to a) get into position for, and b) almost impossible to actually hit anything with the speed differential.
Finally, how on earth did they keep track of who was shooting at whom? Granted, I'm looking for pixels, but most of the cockpit designs mean you can't see behind you.
If you haven't played it, I suggest you do. It'll give you a whole new level of respect for the lunatics who flew the aircraft on both sides. It certainly has me, with my couple of hours of flying time.
Not many people who might know for real about German WWII fighters being more unfriendly than others, but in the sim perhaps you just need extra practice. 
rhinochopig said:
Take the TA-152 (my favourite plane from that era). It's sole purpose seems to be to crash. It's nigh on impossible to get the thing in the air.
Flaps down to take off position. hold it on the brakes, increase throttle to max, release brakes, apply a bit of rudder to counter torque up to speed, pull back gently undercarriage up, continue to climb, not too high a rate though. Same with all planes apart from the Me163 Comet which can go near to vertical on take off Edited by FourWheelDrift on Wednesday 15th April 14:47
Your loss-of-control problems are down to pulling too hard, with the aircraft out of balance, in an aircraft with an enormous engine and propellor at the front.
The result is an uncommanded flick - where one wing stalls slightly before the other, resulting in a drastic reduction in lift and increase in drag on one side, when the other side is generating maximum lift.....and round she goes. If you're not expecting it (and generally, if you're expecting it, you're provoking it in the first place ), and even more disconcerting when the flick is as a result of negative G. The top of a loop is the classic place to experience this, but it can also occur in a tight turn flown out of balance. The Yak can do this when provoked, and its killed a few people along the way.
I have no idea of what instrumentation is available to you in your sim display, but if you have a G-meter and a balance ball, keep the G at or around 3 during the initial pull up and quarter loop, gradually reduce it to at most +1 (for a granny loop) or even less - for a nicely round loop - and keep the balance ball in the middle with the rudder throughout - this will probably be the difficult part. Gradually re-apply the G after the top of the loop, pulling progressively more in the final quarter loop.
Have a go at that. Once you can fly a smooth, drama free loop, try very quickly adding some back-stick and almost immediately full rudder approaching the top of the loop, and see what happens.
In real life, in the Pitts, I'm not looking at the G-meter or the slip ball, I'm usually looking down the wing at the sighting device - my backside is generally telling me it the aircraft is in balance or not - thats why simulator aerobatics are unrepresentative of the real experience - the last time I used a simulator, it belonged to BA - I can confirm, however, that one *does* replicate the experience of stoofing a 777 into the runway with painful accuracy.
FourWheelDrift said:
Flaps down to take off position. hold it on the brakes, increase throttle to max, release brakes, apply a bit of rudder to counter torque up to speed, pull back gently undercarriage up, continue to climb, not too high a rate though.
In reality, anything anywhere near full power on the brakes in a tail dragger like that will result in a nose-over, and a very, very expensive repair bill.Most tail-draggers I've flown require a surprising amount of forward stick initially to get the tail up, and then allow it to run in a level attitude on the mains until achieving sufficient airspeed. Trying to wrench the thing off the ground from the three-point attitude is a recipe for disaster.
Edited by eharding on Wednesday 15th April 16:08
eharding said:
Your loss-of-control problems are down to pulling too hard, with the aircraft out of balance, in an aircraft with an enormous engine and propellor at the front.
The result is an uncommanded flick - where one wing stalls slightly before the other, resulting in a drastic reduction in lift and increase in drag on one side, when the other side is generating maximum lift.....and round she goes. If you're not expecting it (and generally, if you're expecting it, you're provoking it in the first place ), and even more disconcerting when the flick is as a result of negative G. The top of a loop is the classic place to experience this, but it can also occur in a tight turn flown out of balance. The Yak can do this when provoked, and its killed a few people along the way.
I have no idea of what instrumentation is available to you in your sim display, but if you have a G-meter and a balance ball, keep the G at or around 3 during the initial pull up and quarter loop, gradually reduce it to at most +1 (for a granny loop) or even less - for a nicely round loop - and keep the balance ball in the middle with the rudder throughout - this will probably be the difficult part. Gradually re-apply the G after the top of the loop, pulling progressively more in the final quarter loop.
Have a go at that. Once you can fly a smooth, drama free loop, try very quickly adding some back-stick and almost immediately full rudder approaching the top of the loop, and see what happens.
In real life, in the Pitts, I'm not looking at the G-meter or the slip ball, I'm usually looking down the wing at the sighting device - my backside is generally telling me it the aircraft is in balance or not - thats why simulator aerobatics are unrepresentative of the real experience - the last time I used a simulator, it belonged to BA - I can confirm, however, that one *does* replicate the experience of stoofing a 777 into the runway with painful accuracy.
Cheers. I will have a go at that. So any ideas why the German planes appear more "twitchy" and less forgiving.The result is an uncommanded flick - where one wing stalls slightly before the other, resulting in a drastic reduction in lift and increase in drag on one side, when the other side is generating maximum lift.....and round she goes. If you're not expecting it (and generally, if you're expecting it, you're provoking it in the first place ), and even more disconcerting when the flick is as a result of negative G. The top of a loop is the classic place to experience this, but it can also occur in a tight turn flown out of balance. The Yak can do this when provoked, and its killed a few people along the way.
I have no idea of what instrumentation is available to you in your sim display, but if you have a G-meter and a balance ball, keep the G at or around 3 during the initial pull up and quarter loop, gradually reduce it to at most +1 (for a granny loop) or even less - for a nicely round loop - and keep the balance ball in the middle with the rudder throughout - this will probably be the difficult part. Gradually re-apply the G after the top of the loop, pulling progressively more in the final quarter loop.
Have a go at that. Once you can fly a smooth, drama free loop, try very quickly adding some back-stick and almost immediately full rudder approaching the top of the loop, and see what happens.
In real life, in the Pitts, I'm not looking at the G-meter or the slip ball, I'm usually looking down the wing at the sighting device - my backside is generally telling me it the aircraft is in balance or not - thats why simulator aerobatics are unrepresentative of the real experience - the last time I used a simulator, it belonged to BA - I can confirm, however, that one *does* replicate the experience of stoofing a 777 into the runway with painful accuracy.
I had a long held ambition to fly in a Pitts, which I managed to achieve a few years ago in NZ. They do feel remarkably like a 3D Westfield. Big engine in a lightweight body and the constant feeling as if something will fall off. For around £50 you got a 45 min flight with a full range of aerobatics - loops, rolls, tail stalls, etc. It was the best part of the Holiday - you're very lucky to have one to play in. What I found very surreal is that the plane doesn't feel like its moving; it feels more like the world has been painted onto a large sphere which rotates about you - most odd.
eharding said:
Your loss-of-control problems are down to pulling too hard, with the aircraft out of balance, in an aircraft with an enormous engine and propellor at the front.
The result is an uncommanded flick - where one wing stalls slightly before the other, resulting in a drastic reduction in lift and increase in drag on one side, when the other side is generating maximum lift.....and round she goes.
IL2 models this very well but it does give warning. Pulling too hard in a tight turn causes a vibration that you can see and hear in the aircraft and I think the turn rate slows slightly. Pull any harder and the aircraft will flick suddenly into the turn and often become inverted. Then you have to recover from the spin leaving you vulnerable. I am very pleased to hear from a stunt pilot that it simulates this. The result is an uncommanded flick - where one wing stalls slightly before the other, resulting in a drastic reduction in lift and increase in drag on one side, when the other side is generating maximum lift.....and round she goes.
Regarding German aicraft being harder to fly, I haven't really found this, there are some Allied aircraft that are pretty tricky too. Just try some different aircraft and find one that you like.
I think the key as eharding said is not to pull too hard on the stick, pay attention to the way the aircraft responds and it will tell you if it doesn't like it. Also consider using combat flaps.
There is a thriving online community with this sim, you can get into dogfights or historical battles and some servers have 25+ pilots on them. I use a program called Hyperlobby to join online servers. Be aware that some of the pilots are -very- good.
Have fun
Edited for spelling.
Edited by SlipStream77 on Wednesday 15th April 17:32
rhinochopig said:
How did a bomber ever get shot down? Approaching from most angles, I seem to get riddled with bullets before I've managed to line up a shot and diving into a bomber formation, as per the tactics of the era is extremely difficult to a) get into position for, and b) almost impossible to actually hit anything with the speed differential.
Historically in the region of one attacking fighter was shot down by B17s for every 2-3 bombers lost so it is far from a cake walk to take down a bomber in formation. Most of the stories of bombers being blasted out of the sky easily come from the early stages of the war when bombers had 2-3 machine guns. Very few people managed to shoot down more than one bomber in a flight and in many cases based on the likely hit rate and the number of rounds they carried many aircraft weren't statistically capable of shooting down a heavy bomber in one flight with an average pilot Tactics to try, firstly you want to approach in an gentle arc, if you're not turning you are easy to hit. Try approaching from high and to rear at the dead centre of the formation, head outwards to one of the outlying aircraft in the formation, wait until you are bloody close <250m then fire. Try to make your approach so that as you get to 250m approach will cause your nose to track across the wing line of the aircraft you are attacking, making tiny adjustments to the elevators to get the range right. You don't want to spend any time aiming as such, just one quick burst at short range. Then roll off and pull away to the side of the formation before you hit the bomber and to minimise the amount of time they have to fire at you.
The alternative is to make a head on attack as most bombers have relatively few forward firing guns, just remember to break off earlier. Again historically all the attacking fighter really needed to do is damage the bomber sufficiently that it is slower than its formation then pick it off when it was on its own.
rhinochopig said:
Finally, how on earth did they keep track of who was shooting at whom? Granted, I'm looking for pixels, but most of the cockpit designs mean you can't see behind you.
"Dog fighting is a waste of time" Eric Hartman - 352 aerial victories.Most of the skilled pilots operated by spotting their opponent first and attacking them decisively before they themselves were spotted. Obviously in a game this is difficult to program for because your opponents if computer generated can always "see" you its just up to the computer to abstract when they react to to you.
The trick to seeing behind you is to move the aircraft or to have a wing man check your 6 for you while you do the same for them. Again this is a little difficult to achieve if your wingman is computer controlled.
Talksteer said:
rhinochopig said:
How did a bomber ever get shot down? Approaching from most angles, I seem to get riddled with bullets before I've managed to line up a shot and diving into a bomber formation, as per the tactics of the era is extremely difficult to a) get into position for, and b) almost impossible to actually hit anything with the speed differential.
Historically in the region of one attacking fighter was shot down by B17s for every 2-3 bombers lost so it is far from a cake walk to take down a bomber in formation. Most of the stories of bombers being blasted out of the sky easily come from the early stages of the war when bombers had 2-3 machine guns. Very few people managed to shoot down more than one bomber in a flight and in many cases based on the likely hit rate and the number of rounds they carried many aircraft weren't statistically capable of shooting down a heavy bomber in one flight with an average pilot Tactics to try, firstly you want to approach in an gentle arc, if you're not turning you are easy to hit. Try approaching from high and to rear at the dead centre of the formation, head outwards to one of the outlying aircraft in the formation, wait until you are bloody close <250m then fire. Try to make your approach so that as you get to 250m approach will cause your nose to track across the wing line of the aircraft you are attacking, making tiny adjustments to the elevators to get the range right. You don't want to spend any time aiming as such, just one quick burst at short range. Then roll off and pull away to the side of the formation before you hit the bomber and to minimise the amount of time they have to fire at you.
The alternative is to make a head on attack as most bombers have relatively few forward firing guns, just remember to break off earlier. Again historically all the attacking fighter really needed to do is damage the bomber sufficiently that it is slower than its formation then pick it off when it was on its own.
rhinochopig said:
Finally, how on earth did they keep track of who was shooting at whom? Granted, I'm looking for pixels, but most of the cockpit designs mean you can't see behind you.
"Dog fighting is a waste of time" Eric Hartman - 352 aerial victories.Most of the skilled pilots operated by spotting their opponent first and attacking them decisively before they themselves were spotted. Obviously in a game this is difficult to program for because your opponents if computer generated can always "see" you its just up to the computer to abstract when they react to to you.
The trick to seeing behind you is to move the aircraft or to have a wing man check your 6 for you while you do the same for them. Again this is a little difficult to achieve if your wingman is computer controlled.
Interesting stuff. I shall give that a try.I love this game, and I do find the Axis aircraft harder to fly generally but once mastered they are really rewarding aircraft to fly. as for the Axis aircraft I find the ME109 more forgiving than the FW190 derived aircraft, that said the late war FW190 D-9 is a fantastic aircraft and a devastating gun platform once you learn to use that massive engine to your advantage.
Matt
Matt
The ME109 was supposedly more of a handful "on the limit" than the Spit or Hurricane.
When you are yanking an aircraft around the sky, you rely on feel as to what is happening. When you are pulling a very tight turn, you are pulling the aircraft close to the stall. That's nothing to do with slow speed, but to do with reaching the critical angle btween the wing and the relative airflow, once that is breached, the airflow detaches from the wing and it stops producing useful lift.
The Spit and Hurricane gave you warning as you would feel a buffet through the airframe before it actually stalled, the German aircraft had different airfoil sections and so would go from flying to not flying much more suddenly and without much warning.
Flight sim dynamics are pretty shonky to be honest. I can't correlate the feeling between flying and sims in any way. The only ones that do feel relatively real are the full motion arline sims, but not even multi million £ sims totally replicate the feel of actually flying to be totally honest.
When you are yanking an aircraft around the sky, you rely on feel as to what is happening. When you are pulling a very tight turn, you are pulling the aircraft close to the stall. That's nothing to do with slow speed, but to do with reaching the critical angle btween the wing and the relative airflow, once that is breached, the airflow detaches from the wing and it stops producing useful lift.
The Spit and Hurricane gave you warning as you would feel a buffet through the airframe before it actually stalled, the German aircraft had different airfoil sections and so would go from flying to not flying much more suddenly and without much warning.
Flight sim dynamics are pretty shonky to be honest. I can't correlate the feeling between flying and sims in any way. The only ones that do feel relatively real are the full motion arline sims, but not even multi million £ sims totally replicate the feel of actually flying to be totally honest.
Edited by IforB on Thursday 16th April 12:26
mrmaggit said:
I gave up trying to fly the Me109 on Microsofts' Combat Flight Sim, damn thing always used to nose straight down into the ground, regardless of throttle/stick position.
I think a lot of it can be sorted by adjusting controller settings I can fly the ME109 in CFS with a mouse fairly well (auto rudder odv)Which links me to the question, I need a new joystick, not too expensive (less than £50) what should I get?
Talksteer said:
Which links me to the question, I need a new joystick, not too expensive (less than £50) what should I get?
This is what I have - Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. Both parts separate so you can position them where you want. It has a switch on the side to change between PC and PS3 compatibility.http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Hota...
IforB said:
Flight sim dynamics are pretty shonky to be honest. I can't correlate the feeling between flying and sims in any way. The only ones that do feel relatively real are the full motion arline sims, but not even multi million £ sims totally replicate the feel of actually flying to be totally honest.
That's true. I attempted to fly under tower bridge in a 757 doing 300kts in full motion simulator last month and it didn't really work out.If it was for real, I just know I could make it.
el stovey said:
IforB said:
Flight sim dynamics are pretty shonky to be honest. I can't correlate the feeling between flying and sims in any way. The only ones that do feel relatively real are the full motion arline sims, but not even multi million £ sims totally replicate the feel of actually flying to be totally honest.
That's true. I attempted to fly under tower bridge in a 757 doing 300kts in full motion simulator last month and it didn't really work out.If it was for real, I just know I could make it.
109F4 or G2 are probably the most user friendly of the German aircraft, most German aces preferred those models as the sweetest to fly in real life as well. The later 109s are too compromised as they were being built mainly to go after bombers so they are weighed down with heavy armour, heavy armourment and seriously boosted up engines. They were more or less designed to get to high altitude quick and make a couple of runs at the bombers and then GTFO.
A few other tips that might help:
-Most people run lower fuel loadouts, especially online, just keep in mind some aircraft like the 109 have small tanks, so 25% fuel is only enough for 5-10mins, meanwhile something like a Mustang has a huge tank so 25% will last for a long time. A big fuel loadout adds a lot of weight and affects the handling.
-Bombs/Rockets can also affect the handling, even once they have been fired the racks are still modelled on the aircraft.
-Learn how to trim aircraft, this makes them so much nicer to fly, also learn to fly smoothly and use the rudder, this will improve your shooting accuracy as well.
-Learn the complex engine management, on some aircraft this is absolutely necessary to get the best out of it.
-Read the forums/guides and learn the quirks of the program itself, things like opening the radiator doesn't actually cool the engine on the F6F/P-47 like it's supposed to so dont bother deploying it if you overheat.
- Get teamspeak and get a wingman or else you'll be picked off by everyone else who will be operating as small teams (just like in real life WW2, few pilots ventured out by themselves).
Spitfires are considered to be a bit of a 'n00b' aircraft as they are fairly easy to fly for those new to the game, LA7/9 are also considered to be easy to fly and get immediate results in.
Stuff like the FW190 is more of an 'experten' aircraft, difficult for newcomers but devastatingly effective once you know how to use it. Like the Tempest, P-47 and P-51 it's not the sort of aircraft you throw around, they are speed machines, learn how to trim them and manage the engine (and aim/range guns properly) and you can cruise around much faster than everyone else and you can then pick off the low, slow flying stuff at your leisure.
A few other tips that might help:
-Most people run lower fuel loadouts, especially online, just keep in mind some aircraft like the 109 have small tanks, so 25% fuel is only enough for 5-10mins, meanwhile something like a Mustang has a huge tank so 25% will last for a long time. A big fuel loadout adds a lot of weight and affects the handling.
-Bombs/Rockets can also affect the handling, even once they have been fired the racks are still modelled on the aircraft.
-Learn how to trim aircraft, this makes them so much nicer to fly, also learn to fly smoothly and use the rudder, this will improve your shooting accuracy as well.
-Learn the complex engine management, on some aircraft this is absolutely necessary to get the best out of it.
-Read the forums/guides and learn the quirks of the program itself, things like opening the radiator doesn't actually cool the engine on the F6F/P-47 like it's supposed to so dont bother deploying it if you overheat.
- Get teamspeak and get a wingman or else you'll be picked off by everyone else who will be operating as small teams (just like in real life WW2, few pilots ventured out by themselves).
Spitfires are considered to be a bit of a 'n00b' aircraft as they are fairly easy to fly for those new to the game, LA7/9 are also considered to be easy to fly and get immediate results in.
Stuff like the FW190 is more of an 'experten' aircraft, difficult for newcomers but devastatingly effective once you know how to use it. Like the Tempest, P-47 and P-51 it's not the sort of aircraft you throw around, they are speed machines, learn how to trim them and manage the engine (and aim/range guns properly) and you can cruise around much faster than everyone else and you can then pick off the low, slow flying stuff at your leisure.
Talksteer said:
rhinochopig said:
How did a bomber ever get shot down? Approaching from most angles, I seem to get riddled with bullets before I've managed to line up a shot and diving into a bomber formation, as per the tactics of the era is extremely difficult to a) get into position for, and b) almost impossible to actually hit anything with the speed differential.
Historically in the region of one attacking fighter was shot down by B17s for every 2-3 bombers lost so it is far from a cake walk to take down a bomber in formation. Most of the stories of bombers being blasted out of the sky easily come from the early stages of the war when bombers had 2-3 machine guns. Very few people managed to shoot down more than one bomber in a flight and in many cases based on the likely hit rate and the number of rounds they carried many aircraft weren't statistically capable of shooting down a heavy bomber in one flight with an average pilot Tactics to try, firstly you want to approach in an gentle arc, if you're not turning you are easy to hit. Try approaching from high and to rear at the dead centre of the formation, head outwards to one of the outlying aircraft in the formation, wait until you are bloody close <250m then fire. Try to make your approach so that as you get to 250m approach will cause your nose to track across the wing line of the aircraft you are attacking, making tiny adjustments to the elevators to get the range right. You don't want to spend any time aiming as such, just one quick burst at short range. Then roll off and pull away to the side of the formation before you hit the bomber and to minimise the amount of time they have to fire at you.
The alternative is to make a head on attack as most bombers have relatively few forward firing guns, just remember to break off earlier. Again historically all the attacking fighter really needed to do is damage the bomber sufficiently that it is slower than its formation then pick it off when it was on its own.
rhinochopig said:
Finally, how on earth did they keep track of who was shooting at whom? Granted, I'm looking for pixels, but most of the cockpit designs mean you can't see behind you.
"Dog fighting is a waste of time" Eric Hartman - 352 aerial victories.Most of the skilled pilots operated by spotting their opponent first and attacking them decisively before they themselves were spotted. Obviously in a game this is difficult to program for because your opponents if computer generated can always "see" you its just up to the computer to abstract when they react to to you.
The trick to seeing behind you is to move the aircraft or to have a wing man check your 6 for you while you do the same for them. Again this is a little difficult to achieve if your wingman is computer controlled.
He relayed tale of the time he'd taken a friend of his (ex spit pilot) to a lecture at Elvington by Gunther Rall and another german ace. At the end of the lecture was a Q&A session and someone asked Gunther what was the best fighter plane he flew during WWII. His response - surprisingly - was the P51-D, by a long way.
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