The Official 33rd Americas Cup Thread - Starts Mon 8th Feb
Discussion
Racing for the world's oldest sporting trophy begins at 10:06 central European time tomorrow.
TV coverage on Eurosport, with live streaming on the web via the official website and Sky:
http://www.americascup.com/en/regate/regarder-la-c...
http://www.skysports.com/americascup
BMW Oracle have the priority starboard tack (yellow) start entry. With Alighi entering from the blue side, on port tack as give way vessel. The blue side has an added disadvantage this year as an extra mark has been placed in order to try to avoid a dial up - both sides considered that a potential closing speed approaching 70 mph in two 90x90 ft multihulls would be a little too exciting.
BMW Oracle have an enormous trimaran featuring a mechanical wing sail that is larger than the wing on an A380. Team owner Larry Ellison says he won't be aboard for the first race. Skipper Russell Coutts (NZL) and helmsman James Spithill (AUS) presumably will be! William Hill has them as 4/5 favourites, they are predicted to go well in stronger breeze.
Swiss team Alinghi have a 90ft catamaran with a narrower beam than BOR. It is set up for light airs, an enlarged version of owner Ernesto Bertarelli's Lake Geneva catamarans. Skipper Brad Butterworth (NZL) will be calling the shots. Bertorelli will share the driving with Loick Peyron (FRA), with Alan Gaultier (FRA) also likely to be along for the ride. Current betting 10/11
Race 1 is one 20 mile beat followed one 20 mile run to the finish. Scheduled for Mon 8th Feb
Race 2 is a 13 mile beat, followed by a 13 mile reach at approx 120 degree, followed by a second 13 mile 120 degree reach. Scheduled for Wed 10th Feb
Race 3 will be a repeat of race 1, scheduled for Wed 12th Feb.
Both teams are dreading the Race 2 bear away. Multihulls have a danger zone where their speed increases so dramatically that capsizes are likely...
Breakages are a strong possibility: Alinghi are likely to be pooing it a little more since their traditional sails generate 30 tonne loads on a lightweight boat built for ghosting conditions in the gulf, not February in Valencia. The BOR wing sail considerably reduces loads (mainsheet apparently 3 tonnes) and their design looks a much tougher beast.
Forecast for tommorrow is 7-9 knots from the south west.
Whilst I would prefer the cup to stay in Europe, I can't help admiring the Oracle tri...
Alright! Lets get it on!
TV coverage on Eurosport, with live streaming on the web via the official website and Sky:
http://www.americascup.com/en/regate/regarder-la-c...
http://www.skysports.com/americascup
BMW Oracle have the priority starboard tack (yellow) start entry. With Alighi entering from the blue side, on port tack as give way vessel. The blue side has an added disadvantage this year as an extra mark has been placed in order to try to avoid a dial up - both sides considered that a potential closing speed approaching 70 mph in two 90x90 ft multihulls would be a little too exciting.
BMW Oracle have an enormous trimaran featuring a mechanical wing sail that is larger than the wing on an A380. Team owner Larry Ellison says he won't be aboard for the first race. Skipper Russell Coutts (NZL) and helmsman James Spithill (AUS) presumably will be! William Hill has them as 4/5 favourites, they are predicted to go well in stronger breeze.
Swiss team Alinghi have a 90ft catamaran with a narrower beam than BOR. It is set up for light airs, an enlarged version of owner Ernesto Bertarelli's Lake Geneva catamarans. Skipper Brad Butterworth (NZL) will be calling the shots. Bertorelli will share the driving with Loick Peyron (FRA), with Alan Gaultier (FRA) also likely to be along for the ride. Current betting 10/11
Race 1 is one 20 mile beat followed one 20 mile run to the finish. Scheduled for Mon 8th Feb
Race 2 is a 13 mile beat, followed by a 13 mile reach at approx 120 degree, followed by a second 13 mile 120 degree reach. Scheduled for Wed 10th Feb
Race 3 will be a repeat of race 1, scheduled for Wed 12th Feb.
Both teams are dreading the Race 2 bear away. Multihulls have a danger zone where their speed increases so dramatically that capsizes are likely...
Breakages are a strong possibility: Alinghi are likely to be pooing it a little more since their traditional sails generate 30 tonne loads on a lightweight boat built for ghosting conditions in the gulf, not February in Valencia. The BOR wing sail considerably reduces loads (mainsheet apparently 3 tonnes) and their design looks a much tougher beast.
Forecast for tommorrow is 7-9 knots from the south west.
Whilst I would prefer the cup to stay in Europe, I can't help admiring the Oracle tri...
Celebrity Deathmatch announcer said:
Alright! Lets get it on!
Edited by sassthathoopie on Monday 8th February 00:29
There is an outstanding complaint from Ellison that Alighi's sails were built in the US not Switzerland thus failing the country of construction rules. Last week the judge announced that she wouldn't hear it until March ie after the racing.
If Alinghi win it almost certainly won't be all over. If BMW Oracle win Bertarelli has said he wouldn't protest... but who knows, these guys have been measuring their dicks for 3 years already.
If Alinghi win it almost certainly won't be all over. If BMW Oracle win Bertarelli has said he wouldn't protest... but who knows, these guys have been measuring their dicks for 3 years already.
Tis a load of old s
te and these two pillocks have ruined what was a reasonably interesting and competitive series with some great engineering innovation. Now it is undoubtedly still great engineering but their willy waving exercises have killed the sport aspect of it.
It's time the ISAF stepped in and banged their fecking heads together.
te and these two pillocks have ruined what was a reasonably interesting and competitive series with some great engineering innovation. Now it is undoubtedly still great engineering but their willy waving exercises have killed the sport aspect of it.It's time the ISAF stepped in and banged their fecking heads together.
Race start postponed. There's 2 knots of breeze from 220 degrees at the start. 20 miles away at the top mark it's 8.5 knots from 215. Maybe a start in about half an hour?
You are right that Ellison and Bertarelli have destroyed what was a highly competitive and entertain event. BUT...
Switch on Americas Cup TV right now and tell me this isn't the most exciting yacht race this century.
(With the possible exception of the last 3 minutes of the last Cup)
You are right that Ellison and Bertarelli have destroyed what was a highly competitive and entertain event. BUT...
Switch on Americas Cup TV right now and tell me this isn't the most exciting yacht race this century.
(With the possible exception of the last 3 minutes of the last Cup)
The Deed of Gift states the default races courses. Since the teams couldn't agree these are the ones being used. Race 1 and 3 are 20 mile beats. In order to ensure a fair race the wind should not shift more than 30 degrees during the beat.
During the early part of the morning there was a similar wind direction, at both ends of the course but no pressure at the start area. Later on they moved the windward mark; then the start are had wind but the directions differed by 80 degrees.
The Race Officer makes the decision and it's usually going to be a tough one with such big courses.
During the early part of the morning there was a similar wind direction, at both ends of the course but no pressure at the start area. Later on they moved the windward mark; then the start are had wind but the directions differed by 80 degrees.
The Race Officer makes the decision and it's usually going to be a tough one with such big courses.
Matt Sheahan said:
You can drive yourself mad at the America's Cup trying to evaluate who will have the upper hand. As the big day looms, the non-stop round of team press conferences, private briefings and general speculation among expert commentators can send your mind spinning with facts, figures and theories. The outcome is frequently that you end up more confused and less the wiser.
With two days to go until the scheduled start of the 33rd America's Cup that's precisely what has happened.
Since BMW Oracle unveiled its giant wingmast it's been difficult not to be drawn by the potential advantages that this extraordinary piece of technology might offer. The possible benefits of speed, power, pointing ability and manoeuvrability is a potent proposition for any race boat and surely a clear advantage in a match race. But has the team over stated its confidence in the wing and the capabilities of its trimaran?
BMW Oracle Racing's CEO Russell Coutts is keen to point out that his team's boat is better in stronger breezes than Alinghi's catamaran, a boat that was designed with lighter, flat water conditions in mind. Certainly the publicity shots and video clips of USA-17 blasting through a swell at 25 knots would seem to support the suggestion that they're geared up for the breeze. Yet the dockside chatter is that the team does have concerns as to how they will cope come the day. Such issues may start with simply stepping the wing or getting the boat out of the harbour in a downwind breeze.
"Even wheeling the wing in and out of the shed makes you nervous, especially when there's some wind," says design director Mike Drummond. "I don't think I'll ever feel confident in stepping this mast, it's the most scary thing we do. At least when we sail we've got options. If you get it wrong just once, you never get a chance to come back."
He has good reason to feel nervous. A fortnight ago one of the lifting strops broke as the mast was being moved on shore. Despite assessing and repairing the damage, when the boat next sailed, a loud bang was heard during training and the day's sailing was called off.
In another training session the on board generator failed after water got into some of the controls. While it might be possible to sail the boat manually, such a failure on the race course could be disastrous.
On the other hand, the speculation surrounding Alinghi's prospects starts from the basis that their boat is significantly more highly loaded thanks to the forces exerted by the conventional sail plan and rig. Slam this puppy into a few big waves at even just a modest pace of 25 knots and the increase in the loads such as the 100tonne compression at the mast foot, or the 50 tonnes on the genoa tack don't bear thinking about.
Principal designer Rolf Vrolijk has no hesitation in confirming that their boat is indeed more highly stressed, but is also quick to point out that a large part of the development process has been driving home the point that the crew need to sail within the limits for which the boat has been designed.
"Now we have sailed the boat as much as we have, it's starting to feel like just another boat, we've got quite used to it," he said. "That in itself can be a cause for concern as it's easy to underestimate the loads that are involved."
Then there are the issues of sail choice and changing. Assessing what sail will be required for the reaching leg in race two from 19 miles out will be a task and a half. Not only will the wind speed be an issue, but planning for the angle will require a crystal ball. Changing 30m tall headsails with 40 knots blowing over the deck is a massive task.
Vrolijk concedes that perhaps BMW Oracle's wing will be slightly more versatile here, but goes on to point out that Alinghi V is better equipped to fly headsails and gennakers more efficiently thanks to the boat's far stiffer structure.
In a ‘normal' America's Cup there would at least be some historical data, be it performances in previous races, or accurate computer models to simulate the relative speeds and modes of the boats. Here there's nothing. USA-17's upwind capability is just one example of the confusion that reigns. Talk to those who've sailed with solid wing masts and you'll come away believing that such configurations can often sail a few degrees higher. Talk to Alinghi about what they've observed of their opponents and they'll tell you they expect the American team to sail lower and faster upwind.
But it's not just the teams that are having trouble coming to the same conclusions and evaluating how the racing might unfold. The race organisation are having to explore new and unknown territory too.
A 20 nautical mile beat presents all kinds of problems in assessing the wind speed and direction over the course, to say nothing of the task of laying marks. In 300ft of water it will be impractical to anchor buoys. Instead, boats bearing marks will have to hold station, and that includes the committee boat and the start line marks.
And spare a thought for the umpires. Keeping pace with the boats will be tricky, even in flat water. When the waves build even to just 1m, holding 20-25 knots in one of the RIBs is a bone jarring experience at best.
But perhaps the most amusing last minute issue to crop up was when someone in the Alinghi team realised that they hadn't thought about whether they had made provision to carry a protest flag. The rumours circulating at present is that USA-17 will be flying one as she enters the start box for the first race if the Swiss decide to use their 3DL sails. But then, that's just one of a thousand rumours and topics of discussion firing around the Darsena.
The most popular subject is that of performance, but here this America's Cup is presenting more questions than answers and no amount of shoreside debate appears to be able to make the situation any clearer.
The only issue that is unambiguous, is that unlike any of the recent America's Cups, the teams don't know either.
With two days to go until the scheduled start of the 33rd America's Cup that's precisely what has happened.
Since BMW Oracle unveiled its giant wingmast it's been difficult not to be drawn by the potential advantages that this extraordinary piece of technology might offer. The possible benefits of speed, power, pointing ability and manoeuvrability is a potent proposition for any race boat and surely a clear advantage in a match race. But has the team over stated its confidence in the wing and the capabilities of its trimaran?
BMW Oracle Racing's CEO Russell Coutts is keen to point out that his team's boat is better in stronger breezes than Alinghi's catamaran, a boat that was designed with lighter, flat water conditions in mind. Certainly the publicity shots and video clips of USA-17 blasting through a swell at 25 knots would seem to support the suggestion that they're geared up for the breeze. Yet the dockside chatter is that the team does have concerns as to how they will cope come the day. Such issues may start with simply stepping the wing or getting the boat out of the harbour in a downwind breeze.
"Even wheeling the wing in and out of the shed makes you nervous, especially when there's some wind," says design director Mike Drummond. "I don't think I'll ever feel confident in stepping this mast, it's the most scary thing we do. At least when we sail we've got options. If you get it wrong just once, you never get a chance to come back."
He has good reason to feel nervous. A fortnight ago one of the lifting strops broke as the mast was being moved on shore. Despite assessing and repairing the damage, when the boat next sailed, a loud bang was heard during training and the day's sailing was called off.
In another training session the on board generator failed after water got into some of the controls. While it might be possible to sail the boat manually, such a failure on the race course could be disastrous.
On the other hand, the speculation surrounding Alinghi's prospects starts from the basis that their boat is significantly more highly loaded thanks to the forces exerted by the conventional sail plan and rig. Slam this puppy into a few big waves at even just a modest pace of 25 knots and the increase in the loads such as the 100tonne compression at the mast foot, or the 50 tonnes on the genoa tack don't bear thinking about.
Principal designer Rolf Vrolijk has no hesitation in confirming that their boat is indeed more highly stressed, but is also quick to point out that a large part of the development process has been driving home the point that the crew need to sail within the limits for which the boat has been designed.
"Now we have sailed the boat as much as we have, it's starting to feel like just another boat, we've got quite used to it," he said. "That in itself can be a cause for concern as it's easy to underestimate the loads that are involved."
Then there are the issues of sail choice and changing. Assessing what sail will be required for the reaching leg in race two from 19 miles out will be a task and a half. Not only will the wind speed be an issue, but planning for the angle will require a crystal ball. Changing 30m tall headsails with 40 knots blowing over the deck is a massive task.
Vrolijk concedes that perhaps BMW Oracle's wing will be slightly more versatile here, but goes on to point out that Alinghi V is better equipped to fly headsails and gennakers more efficiently thanks to the boat's far stiffer structure.
In a ‘normal' America's Cup there would at least be some historical data, be it performances in previous races, or accurate computer models to simulate the relative speeds and modes of the boats. Here there's nothing. USA-17's upwind capability is just one example of the confusion that reigns. Talk to those who've sailed with solid wing masts and you'll come away believing that such configurations can often sail a few degrees higher. Talk to Alinghi about what they've observed of their opponents and they'll tell you they expect the American team to sail lower and faster upwind.
But it's not just the teams that are having trouble coming to the same conclusions and evaluating how the racing might unfold. The race organisation are having to explore new and unknown territory too.
A 20 nautical mile beat presents all kinds of problems in assessing the wind speed and direction over the course, to say nothing of the task of laying marks. In 300ft of water it will be impractical to anchor buoys. Instead, boats bearing marks will have to hold station, and that includes the committee boat and the start line marks.
And spare a thought for the umpires. Keeping pace with the boats will be tricky, even in flat water. When the waves build even to just 1m, holding 20-25 knots in one of the RIBs is a bone jarring experience at best.
But perhaps the most amusing last minute issue to crop up was when someone in the Alinghi team realised that they hadn't thought about whether they had made provision to carry a protest flag. The rumours circulating at present is that USA-17 will be flying one as she enters the start box for the first race if the Swiss decide to use their 3DL sails. But then, that's just one of a thousand rumours and topics of discussion firing around the Darsena.
The most popular subject is that of performance, but here this America's Cup is presenting more questions than answers and no amount of shoreside debate appears to be able to make the situation any clearer.
The only issue that is unambiguous, is that unlike any of the recent America's Cups, the teams don't know either.
sassthathoopie said:
.
Switch on Americas Cup TV right now and tell me this isn't the most exciting yacht race this century.
(With the possible exception of the last 3 minutes of the last Cup)
You are having a larf aintchaSwitch on Americas Cup TV right now and tell me this isn't the most exciting yacht race this century.
(With the possible exception of the last 3 minutes of the last Cup)
2 boats one will blast off in one direction...the other in the other direction
They come together (sort of) at the windward mark and blast off again
This is going to be hit the corners drag racing not yacht racing
The only exciting matter there is is a 30% chance that one of the boats will suffer catastrophic gear failure, hopefully they will crumble like the egos of the 2 protaginists
The sooner this mess is sorted the better
Edited by Scooby_snax on Monday 8th February 18:47
So you aren't even a tiny bit interested to see what happens when two 100ft+ maximum speed machines are built without restriction by rules or budget?
You've never wondered which is faster a catamaran or a trimaran
You're not interested to see what happens when two maxi multihulls match race?
You're not interested to find out where the next cup will be held?
You're not interested to find out who the challenger for the 34th Cup will be an hence which boats will be raced next time around?
You're not interested in watching one of the biggest grudge matches in sailing history settled so we can get on with the real thing?
If you can't get excited about sailing upwind at 3-4 times the windspeed then maybe you're not really interested in sailing - which I guess is fair enough since this is a website for car fans
Half the fun of this DoG match is the anticipation; since no one knows what's going to happen
You've never wondered which is faster a catamaran or a trimaran
You're not interested to see what happens when two maxi multihulls match race?
You're not interested to find out where the next cup will be held?
You're not interested to find out who the challenger for the 34th Cup will be an hence which boats will be raced next time around?
You're not interested in watching one of the biggest grudge matches in sailing history settled so we can get on with the real thing?
If you can't get excited about sailing upwind at 3-4 times the windspeed then maybe you're not really interested in sailing - which I guess is fair enough since this is a website for car fans
Half the fun of this DoG match is the anticipation; since no one knows what's going to happen
sassthathoopie said:
So you aren't even a tiny bit interested to see what happens when two 100ft+ maximum speed machines are built without restriction by rules or budget?
You've never wondered which is faster a catamaran or a trimaran
You're not interested to see what happens when two maxi multihulls match race?
You're not interested to find out where the next cup will be held?
You're not interested to find out who the challenger for the 34th Cup will be an hence which boats will be raced next time around?
You're not interested in watching one of the biggest grudge matches in sailing history settled so we can get on with the real thing?
If you can't get excited about sailing upwind at 3-4 times the windspeed then maybe you're not really interested in sailing - which I guess is fair enough since this is a website for car fans
Half the fun of this DoG match is the anticipation; since no one knows what's going to happen
Rather presumptious there mate.You've never wondered which is faster a catamaran or a trimaran
You're not interested to see what happens when two maxi multihulls match race?
You're not interested to find out where the next cup will be held?
You're not interested to find out who the challenger for the 34th Cup will be an hence which boats will be raced next time around?
You're not interested in watching one of the biggest grudge matches in sailing history settled so we can get on with the real thing?
If you can't get excited about sailing upwind at 3-4 times the windspeed then maybe you're not really interested in sailing - which I guess is fair enough since this is a website for car fans
Half the fun of this DoG match is the anticipation; since no one knows what's going to happen
Been sailing for 40+ years, multiple dinghy champion in my youth
I have raced on board ABN AMRO so I know exactly what it is like to sail faster than the true wind and that is in a monohull.
(So no need to aplogise for your wild assumptions)
Oh I have a passing interest but to put it under the Americas Cup banner is a farce, almost as bad as when Connor had his multihull vs a monohull in 1988
If you believe you are going to see match racing between these multihulls then the closest you are going to get it is what you saw today
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