Commercial Pilot Training
Discussion
As it has always been a dream of mine to fly planes for a living I have decided to look into the possibility of becoming a commercial pilot.
Are there any pilots on PH that could offer some advise on how to get into that particular field. I have never fancied the RAF which is where I believe many commercial pilots learn to fly and then move on when they finish their service.
The only other option I have seen is CTC Wings where you have raise a £60k security bond to pay for the flight training. would this be the best way do you think?
Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated,
cheers
Bob
Are there any pilots on PH that could offer some advise on how to get into that particular field. I have never fancied the RAF which is where I believe many commercial pilots learn to fly and then move on when they finish their service.
The only other option I have seen is CTC Wings where you have raise a £60k security bond to pay for the flight training. would this be the best way do you think?
Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated,
cheers
Bob
Thats pretty much the only way now. I think BMI Baby will put 28k towards your training, but then you're locked into employment with them after for a certain period of time. Otherwise theres Oxford Air Training which is 66k for the fees alone.
The job market for pilots has bottomed out now and will probably start to rise from here. It is still hugely tough however. Unless you get lucky and land yourself a job with a MAJOR carrier at the end of training, then you will be on smaller carriers, often just getting work now and again. Some guys are leaving flight school with close to 100k of debt and not finding a job.
My Father is a senior Captain with Cathay Pacific, and has warned me off that career path for now. If you started your training now, then you wouldnt be applying for jobs for another 18 months or so, so it may well improve in the meantime. If you go through with it, make sure you're ULTRA keen.
The job market for pilots has bottomed out now and will probably start to rise from here. It is still hugely tough however. Unless you get lucky and land yourself a job with a MAJOR carrier at the end of training, then you will be on smaller carriers, often just getting work now and again. Some guys are leaving flight school with close to 100k of debt and not finding a job.
My Father is a senior Captain with Cathay Pacific, and has warned me off that career path for now. If you started your training now, then you wouldnt be applying for jobs for another 18 months or so, so it may well improve in the meantime. If you go through with it, make sure you're ULTRA keen.
Edited by Maxymillion on Friday 19th February 23:18
Yep have a look at Oxford aviation they do an ATP course that is around the 66k mark and is funded by HSBC, the good thing with there course is that you start to repay the loan once you have gained employment after training or 1 year after you have finished training.
The best wary to find the flight school that best suits your needs is to go along to the open days they hold i'm going to one at OAT on the 13th March and one at CTC on the 20th March.
You may get a sponsor from an airline but they can be hard to get, a couple of pilot friends i know either started out with BA and have stayed and the others started with Easy Jet then went on to Virgin Atlantic or BMI, as bad as some people beat down Easy Jet they are a good starter airline for new pilots and for some reason Virgin like pilots who have flow for them.
The best wary to find the flight school that best suits your needs is to go along to the open days they hold i'm going to one at OAT on the 13th March and one at CTC on the 20th March.
You may get a sponsor from an airline but they can be hard to get, a couple of pilot friends i know either started out with BA and have stayed and the others started with Easy Jet then went on to Virgin Atlantic or BMI, as bad as some people beat down Easy Jet they are a good starter airline for new pilots and for some reason Virgin like pilots who have flow for them.
There are a couple of ways of going about it, mate.
I flew in the Navy, but as you said, that isn't for everyone. Aside that, there are what's known as 'integrated' flight training. CTC is an example of this. Oxford Aviation Academy is another, as is Flight Training Europe.
They are the intense, full-time training courses. Instruction is very good, as is continuity in training, which is important. However, they are expensive. £60,000+. If you don't have the cash, then the schools have deals with banks to help you get the financing. I believe it's an 11-year loan. I don't think they'll lend the full amount, though, apart from to CTC students. On top of the fact that you won't be earning for 18 months or so. These schools do have more favourable results when it comes to placing newly-qualifieds into shiny jets, however. In this economy, that ain't worth much, in my opinion. If nobody is hiring, nobody is hiring.
The other way is known as the 'modular' route. That is doing it in 'modules', ie. get your private license, then commercial, then multi-engine instrument rating. Along the way, you'll be self-studying for the 14 ATPL theory exams This is normally conducted at your own pace, around your work schedule. It can be done full-time, too. Typically, this is MASSIVELY cheaper. I think you can do it for under £30k. This is the traditional route, and can be done at a huge number of schools, and you can chop and change schools along the way, if you so desired. Many of which provide first-class training, too.
Right now, the industry is in the s
thouse. I suspect timing is everything, if you wish to jump straight in to the seat of a big jet. Emerging from training when airlines are hiring makes you a more attractive proposition than one who has stale ink on his licenses. However, there are a lot of pilots with thousands of hours (many many years) experience who are looking for work right now. Aside airlines, however, there are some wonderful flying jobs out there; instructing being a particularly valuable one. The pay may not be up to much, but you'll learn a huge amount doing it, and make good friends and contacts along the way.
I've flown a few airliners and a few buziness jets, business jets being my focus. Sadly, that's as hard-hit a sector as any of them, especially here in the US, so I must bide my time, too. However, there are some dream jobs out there, you just have to have the drive and ambition to make it happen, when economic conditions permit. The job I had lined up was on a Gulfstream in Dubai. Paid housing in a huge appartment by the beach, a (frankly) hilarious tax-free pay-cheque, all for doing 8 or so days work a month, mostly flying to Monaco and Mumbai. For my wife and I, that beats any airline job out there. Sadly the economy saw to that. But, goes to show, there are great things to work towards.
I'll end by saying 2 things:
1) Timing is everything. I do not forsee the hiring of low-time applicants for at least 2 years. Plan to emerge from training thereafter.
2) All employers are not equal. Some airlines take huge advantage of the fact that so many people want to be pilots. They'll make you pay for your type rating (£20,000), uniforms, parking, hotels, work you to the bone, the lot. All on a sub-standard salary. Others, however, will afford you a very nice lifestyle indeed, in terms of pay, rostering, pensions etc.
Good luck, but be careful.
Ps/ there are some very experienced pilots on here. IforB can shed more light on this subject, he's particularly experienced in the flight training side of things, having been a school chief instructor. There are several other airline pilots on here, too.
I flew in the Navy, but as you said, that isn't for everyone. Aside that, there are what's known as 'integrated' flight training. CTC is an example of this. Oxford Aviation Academy is another, as is Flight Training Europe.
They are the intense, full-time training courses. Instruction is very good, as is continuity in training, which is important. However, they are expensive. £60,000+. If you don't have the cash, then the schools have deals with banks to help you get the financing. I believe it's an 11-year loan. I don't think they'll lend the full amount, though, apart from to CTC students. On top of the fact that you won't be earning for 18 months or so. These schools do have more favourable results when it comes to placing newly-qualifieds into shiny jets, however. In this economy, that ain't worth much, in my opinion. If nobody is hiring, nobody is hiring.
The other way is known as the 'modular' route. That is doing it in 'modules', ie. get your private license, then commercial, then multi-engine instrument rating. Along the way, you'll be self-studying for the 14 ATPL theory exams This is normally conducted at your own pace, around your work schedule. It can be done full-time, too. Typically, this is MASSIVELY cheaper. I think you can do it for under £30k. This is the traditional route, and can be done at a huge number of schools, and you can chop and change schools along the way, if you so desired. Many of which provide first-class training, too.
Right now, the industry is in the s
thouse. I suspect timing is everything, if you wish to jump straight in to the seat of a big jet. Emerging from training when airlines are hiring makes you a more attractive proposition than one who has stale ink on his licenses. However, there are a lot of pilots with thousands of hours (many many years) experience who are looking for work right now. Aside airlines, however, there are some wonderful flying jobs out there; instructing being a particularly valuable one. The pay may not be up to much, but you'll learn a huge amount doing it, and make good friends and contacts along the way. I've flown a few airliners and a few buziness jets, business jets being my focus. Sadly, that's as hard-hit a sector as any of them, especially here in the US, so I must bide my time, too. However, there are some dream jobs out there, you just have to have the drive and ambition to make it happen, when economic conditions permit. The job I had lined up was on a Gulfstream in Dubai. Paid housing in a huge appartment by the beach, a (frankly) hilarious tax-free pay-cheque, all for doing 8 or so days work a month, mostly flying to Monaco and Mumbai. For my wife and I, that beats any airline job out there. Sadly the economy saw to that. But, goes to show, there are great things to work towards.
I'll end by saying 2 things:
1) Timing is everything. I do not forsee the hiring of low-time applicants for at least 2 years. Plan to emerge from training thereafter.
2) All employers are not equal. Some airlines take huge advantage of the fact that so many people want to be pilots. They'll make you pay for your type rating (£20,000), uniforms, parking, hotels, work you to the bone, the lot. All on a sub-standard salary. Others, however, will afford you a very nice lifestyle indeed, in terms of pay, rostering, pensions etc.
Good luck, but be careful.
Ps/ there are some very experienced pilots on here. IforB can shed more light on this subject, he's particularly experienced in the flight training side of things, having been a school chief instructor. There are several other airline pilots on here, too.
Determination and time. You will need a lot of both.
Don't let people put you off. A lot will try.
You need to know what you are getting in to. Keep asking questions.
Have a read up here:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-...
And here:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easy...
Be aware - there is a lot of luck involved. Some guys I went through training with never earned a penny as a Commercial Pilot. Another friend has earned over a million pounds in the last 10 years and made another million on top with property. (Hong Kong.) Most pilots sit somewhere between the extremes.
One last thing you should know - your own attitude is very important. I work with a very large UK Charter Airline. I reckon I have one of the best jobs in the world. But some of the guys I work with do nothing but moan and moan and moan. Yes flying is not what it used to be it is still dam good fun and provides a fabulous lifestyle.
Gotta dash need to squeeze skiing stuff and beach stuff in my case for 2 weeks away!
Don't let people put you off. A lot will try.
You need to know what you are getting in to. Keep asking questions.
Have a read up here:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-...
And here:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/398854-easy...
Be aware - there is a lot of luck involved. Some guys I went through training with never earned a penny as a Commercial Pilot. Another friend has earned over a million pounds in the last 10 years and made another million on top with property. (Hong Kong.) Most pilots sit somewhere between the extremes.
One last thing you should know - your own attitude is very important. I work with a very large UK Charter Airline. I reckon I have one of the best jobs in the world. But some of the guys I work with do nothing but moan and moan and moan. Yes flying is not what it used to be it is still dam good fun and provides a fabulous lifestyle.
Gotta dash need to squeeze skiing stuff and beach stuff in my case for 2 weeks away!
Edited by R1_NUR on Saturday 20th February 13:42
Just finished my Integrated training 2 weeks ago. I did mine at one of the 'big three'.
Now the proud holder of an CPL/IR/ATPL(A), and very, very unemployed.
Anything the OP wants to know, the good AND the bad of my training experience, I'd be happy to respond to very honestly via P.M.
Failing that, read the PPRUNE section, Wannabee's. You might not like what you read, but a lot of it is very, very accurate.
Good luck with your decision. Maybe sufficeto say if you believe a tenth of what you are promised by ANY training provider, you'll not go far wrong.
Now the proud holder of an CPL/IR/ATPL(A), and very, very unemployed.
Anything the OP wants to know, the good AND the bad of my training experience, I'd be happy to respond to very honestly via P.M.
Failing that, read the PPRUNE section, Wannabee's. You might not like what you read, but a lot of it is very, very accurate.
Good luck with your decision. Maybe sufficeto say if you believe a tenth of what you are promised by ANY training provider, you'll not go far wrong.
These days Euroboy it's kicking on for £90k+ debt, and mid £20's starting salary.
That £90k+ is before you put a JOC course and a type rating, another £30k, onto the spend. These days, unless you have money to fund a type rating, then it's a 1% chance of a jet job. At best. Employers want YOU to fund that now.
So, OP, unless you have that extra £30k, dont get into it.
Could be Euroboy you made the right choice for you indeed mate!
That £90k+ is before you put a JOC course and a type rating, another £30k, onto the spend. These days, unless you have money to fund a type rating, then it's a 1% chance of a jet job. At best. Employers want YOU to fund that now.
So, OP, unless you have that extra £30k, dont get into it.
Could be Euroboy you made the right choice for you indeed mate!
Edited by skyslimit on Saturday 20th February 17:34
Hi,
salaries range widely in the industry. The lower end of the scale will be in the region of 1500 pounds per month. A friend of mine flies in Japan as a contract pilot and he earns over 18000 US dollars per month.
I would suggest trying to get into the RAF. They will pay for your training which is second to none, interesting flying options will be available, subject to your aptitude, and in the future you can join the airline industry.
The industry is changing, my advice would be to think long and hard about it before you take the plunge.
Good luck in the future.
salaries range widely in the industry. The lower end of the scale will be in the region of 1500 pounds per month. A friend of mine flies in Japan as a contract pilot and he earns over 18000 US dollars per month.
I would suggest trying to get into the RAF. They will pay for your training which is second to none, interesting flying options will be available, subject to your aptitude, and in the future you can join the airline industry.
The industry is changing, my advice would be to think long and hard about it before you take the plunge.
Good luck in the future.
Edited by khaosai on Saturday 20th February 17:51
Edited by khaosai on Saturday 20th February 17:52
Merry said:
Quick question, i'm deaf in my left ear. I presume this means I really couldnt undertake such a job?
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/271434-what...
The long and the short of it is MINUS £20,000 to £200,000 plus.
Starting salaries are low for new pilots but increase rapidly depending on who you work for.
My airline has many pilots earning six figures and only flying c600 hours a year. You don't get that in many other jobs.
You have to really want to do it to get there though. It's really not the kind of job that people drift into.
My airline has many pilots earning six figures and only flying c600 hours a year. You don't get that in many other jobs.
You have to really want to do it to get there though. It's really not the kind of job that people drift into.
Merry said:
Quick question, i'm deaf in my left ear. I presume this means I really couldnt undertake such a job?
Almost certainly not unfortunately. I've looked at it myself (right ear) and even a Class 2 medical (for a private licence) requires that you be able to hear a conversation tone 2m behind you in both ears. A Class 1, which you'd require for a commercial career requires proper audiological tests. The initial medical appears to be the main barrier - once you're in, the renewal medicals are slightly easier hence how there are apparently commercial pilots with hearing losses.However, if you just want to fly in good weather in the UK, the NPPL only requires you meet the DVLA Group 1 standard (private driving), or Group 2 (HGV etc) standard if you want to carry 3 passengers. The latter only requires "Of paramount importance is the proven ability to be able to communicate in the event of an emergency by speech or by using a device e.g. a MINICOM". I'm hoping to go down this route in the summer.
Edited by ninja-lewis on Saturday 20th February 19:30
euroboy said:
p.s. did I mention ATC 
As much as I love my job, I do often wish I'd taken a different route, ATC being top of the list.Out of interest, are there many pilots who switch over to ATC? Would it be an easy transition or is it completely different?
To the OP, I wouldn't bother with the integrated route. Go the modular route and work and earn whilst you train. Pprune probably has all your answers if you ignore all the drivel. Oh and don't forget there are plenty of other flying jobs that don't involve flying passengers around.
Lots of good advice here. As, mentioned, PPrune has plenty to offer.
I'd suggest doing a PPL first, to see if flying really is for you without plunging straight into an integrated course. Find an instructor who's prepared to push you harder than the basic PPL standard from the beginning. When I was a civvy instructor teaching PPLs I always offered this approach to those who were serious about flying for a living. The modular route can be done at your own pace, and has some flexibility and 'breathing space' in it compared to integrated. Some airlines will always prefer those who have completed an integrated course, but I have many ex-students who went the modular route who are flying 737, Airbus, corporate jet et al. Modular training also allows you to spread the cost.
There's a lot of work required, and you'll really need to want to fly for a living more than anything else in your life once you get into it. The ground exams aren't hugely complex, particularly if you've had a technical education, but there's a very broad spread of stuff to learn. I worked far harder for my ATPL exams than I did for my engineering degree, and didn't pass all the ATPLs first time.
As others have said, the industry is in a pretty crap state at the moment. Even when times are good, your first job may well be flying a commuter turboprop on £22k a year; not everyone gets direct-entry 737. You may sit for months or years after qualifying waiting for that first job.
Go and have a few lessons on a Cessna 152 or whatever to start. I'll bet you'll be hooked! There're loads of career paths in aviation, as has been said. I've been a civvy flying instructor, military instructor, corporate-jet co-pilot and this year I'm doing some display flying into the bargain. Haven't had an airline job yet, been too busy having fun elsewhere!
I'd suggest doing a PPL first, to see if flying really is for you without plunging straight into an integrated course. Find an instructor who's prepared to push you harder than the basic PPL standard from the beginning. When I was a civvy instructor teaching PPLs I always offered this approach to those who were serious about flying for a living. The modular route can be done at your own pace, and has some flexibility and 'breathing space' in it compared to integrated. Some airlines will always prefer those who have completed an integrated course, but I have many ex-students who went the modular route who are flying 737, Airbus, corporate jet et al. Modular training also allows you to spread the cost.
There's a lot of work required, and you'll really need to want to fly for a living more than anything else in your life once you get into it. The ground exams aren't hugely complex, particularly if you've had a technical education, but there's a very broad spread of stuff to learn. I worked far harder for my ATPL exams than I did for my engineering degree, and didn't pass all the ATPLs first time.
As others have said, the industry is in a pretty crap state at the moment. Even when times are good, your first job may well be flying a commuter turboprop on £22k a year; not everyone gets direct-entry 737. You may sit for months or years after qualifying waiting for that first job.
Go and have a few lessons on a Cessna 152 or whatever to start. I'll bet you'll be hooked! There're loads of career paths in aviation, as has been said. I've been a civvy flying instructor, military instructor, corporate-jet co-pilot and this year I'm doing some display flying into the bargain. Haven't had an airline job yet, been too busy having fun elsewhere!
That's what he told me 
We were filming his family for some kid's TV show at his house.
Tell you what, if London Underground were recruiting from the general public, I'd be signing on the dot. My brother works for them and says that apart from staring at a dark tunnel all day, it's short hours and loads of dosh and thanks to the union, almost impossible to get sacked.
My brother is not a driver though so maybe it's more bullsh*7
Maybe he was a non too good pilot.
We were filming his family for some kid's TV show at his house.
Tell you what, if London Underground were recruiting from the general public, I'd be signing on the dot. My brother works for them and says that apart from staring at a dark tunnel all day, it's short hours and loads of dosh and thanks to the union, almost impossible to get sacked.
My brother is not a driver though so maybe it's more bullsh*7
Maybe he was a non too good pilot.
Edited by croyde on Saturday 20th February 22:29
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