Fatal accident at air race

[tank slapper]

Sadly, two people have been killed at the Schneider Trophy race earlier today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11189990

What is the format of the racing? Is it similar to the Reno races where they race outright for position, or is it a time trial format?

[eharding]

tank slapper said:

Sadly, two people have been killed at the Schneider Trophy race earlier today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11189990

What is the format of the racing? Is it similar to the Reno races where they race outright for position, or is it a time trial format?

Very bad news indeed - thankfully, the occupants of one of the aircraft survived.

UK air-racing as controlled by the Royal Aero Club is essentially a time-trial - each aircraft has a set handicap speed, and the idea is to complete the course at as close to that speed as possible - the handicaps are applied as the time the aircraft is allowed to take off, with the idea being that at the finish line most aircraft - if they fly at the specified speed - will arrive in a short period of time.

It does mean that you can have a number of aircraft in close proximity to each other, and the ground, without being in any formal sense in formation. There is a mandatory training programme required to get signed off for this type of air-racing, which is supposed to address the risks and provide guidance on how aircraft of different performance should safely negotiate the course. Obviously, it isn't clear what happened in this case, and formally won't be until the AAIB findings are published.

[Simpo Two]

Blimey, I didn't realise the Schneider Trophy was still going. Thought we won outright it years ago!

[Sam_68]

Simpo Two said:

Blimey, I didn't realise the Schneider Trophy was still going. Thought we won outright it years ago!

We did. The current races bear about the same relationship to the original contest as the modern Olympics do to the ancient Greek version.

It's not even a competition for seaplanes these days.

[Simpo Two]

Aha: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Trophy

Something we can win at last!

Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 5th September 10:38

[JWH]

Sam_68 said:

Simpo Two said:

Blimey, I didn't realise the Schneider Trophy was still going. Thought we won outright it years ago!

We did. The current races bear about the same relationship to the original contest as the modern Olympics do to the ancient Greek version.

It's not even a competition for seaplanes these days.

It never was a competition for sea planes as such. The fact that all the entrants were seaplanes was a consequence of the fact that variable pitch props hadn't been invented yet; the fixed pitch that was necessary to give the required top speed meant the prop was horrifically inefficient at take off speeds, the take off runs were therefore longer than could be accomodated on any runway of the period so the only option was to fix floats and use the unlimited length of the sea.

[Eric Mc]

I don't think so. The Trophy was first raced for in 1913 and I was under the impression that it was purely for seaplanes and flying boats.

The more modern Schneider Trophy had precious liittle to do with the original, apart from the fact that it is held in the Solent area where some of the 1930s races were held.
Iit is much more like the Kings Cup Aiir Races which were hamndiicapped events open to all sorts of aircraft.

[chucklebutty]

The chaps are friends of mine, father and son. The son has 2 young kids of his own.

We're in shock despite knowing it's a risky hobby. The pilot was retired commercial so really experienced.

[Eric Mc]

Very upsetting when the individuals are known. Any idea what types of aircraft were involved?

[Sam_68]

JWH said:

It never was a competition for sea planes as such.

The Schneider Trophy's correct original name was the Coupe d'Aviation Maritime Jacques Schneider and it was specifically for seaplanes and flying boats.. the clue is in the 'Maritime' bit .

The earliest winners were, in fact, modified landplanes (Deperdussin and Sopwith Tabloid) to which floats had been added, so to suggest that it was competed for by seaplanes for the reasons you gave is clearly nonsensical.

[JWH]

Sam_68 said:

JWH said:

It never was a competition for sea planes as such.

The Schneider Trophy's correct original name was the Coupe d'Aviation Maritime Jacques Schneider and it was specifically for seaplanes and flying boats.. the clue is in the 'Maritime' bit .

The earliest winners were, in fact, modified landplanes (Deperdussin and Sopwith Tabloid) to which floats had been added, so to suggest that it was competed for by seaplanes for the reasons you gave is clearly nonsensical.

Humble pie eaten, a little research on my behalf proves you're correct. I'll confess that I was regurgitating info I'd read elsewhere and hadn't done my due diligence; sorry!

Having said that the theory ref extremely coarse fixed pitch props and extended ground rolls is valid. I'd be interested to know what the aerodyamic specs of the props they used were; it seems the 1931 S6.B had 2600bhp, transmitting that much power efficiently through a two bladed fixed prop is quite an achievement. Add an aerofoil design that was efficient at speeds in excess of 400mph IAS and (I assume) had no lift augmentation devices then a fair old ground roll (float?!) must be necessary.

[Eric Mc]

Long take off only becvame an issue by the late 20s and 30s. The early pre-WW1 Scneider Trophy aircraft probably had shorter take offs in theiir land plane variants.

Sopwith Tabloid at Monaco in 1914.

[Sam_68]

JWH said:

Having said that the theory ref extremely coarse fixed pitch props and extended ground rolls is valid.

Against which you'd presumably have to balance the extra drag of the floats for a waterborne take off, if the props were not very efficient?

I'm no seaplane expert, but I used to race 3-point hydroplanes (which essentially work like one of the floats on a seaplane, but driven by an immersed propeller). By far the greatest problem was to get it 'over the hump' - overcoming the large hydrodynamic drag that builds up before the hull lifts itself up and begins to plane (skim) over the surface.

We used to use very highly tuned Hillman Imp engines that lacked the torque at low revs to pull the hull through this phase, so I cobbled together a device to blow compressed CO2 into the prop to allow it to spin up to peak-power revs for a few seconds to get the boat onto the plane.

The final Italian Schneider design (the Macchi Castoldi MC52) had contra-rotating props to overcome an associated problem - the torque reaction from a single prop would tend to make one float 'dig in' so that the aircraft had difficulty getting the floats onto the plane and went round in circles going nowhere!

The MC52 would probably have whooped our asses in the final 'proper' Schneider race, if they'd managed to overcome the teething problems in time. As it was, the Italian were forced to withdraw their entry and we flew unopposed.

[chucklebutty]

The guys were in a little 4 seater, I can't recall the model but it was house in Elstree and quite svelte. Not a converted sea racer.

Edited by chucklebutty on Sunday 5th September 18:59

[ML]

chucklebutty said:

The guys were in a little 4 seater, I can't recall the model but it was house in Elstree and quite svelte. Not a converted sea racer.

Edited by chucklebutty on Sunday 5th September 18:59

I think from one report I read it was a Mooney?

[24lemons]

I was in Cowes last night. I didnt know there was an air race going on but as I was walking along by the entrance to the harbour I heard and saw 3 planes flying inland. They were all at the same height and travelling fairly close together at speed. One plane was quickly catching another but they soon went out of sight.

It wasnt until later, when I was in the pub that I found out about the crash thanks to Sky news. It turned out that the crash happened at the same time I saw those aircraft. It was quite sobering to think that I might have seen the aircraft moments before they crashed. Of course I'll never know if the planes I saw were the same ones that crashed but even so, its a strange feeling to be so close to something like that.