Air ambulances

[Dr Jekyll]

Just been watching a TV programme about these and a couple of questions occur.

Is the main advantage of the helicopter to get the medics and equipment to the patient quicker or to get the patient to hospital quicker? Very often they seem to send the patient to a hospital in a conventional ambulance anyway.

Why is there an issue with night flying? I can understand that they don't want to land in a field in the dark, but the program referred to the air ambulance having to leave a scene because CAA rules meant it had to be back at base before dark. Is the off airfield take off that's the problem in the dark? Or that they can't land at the hospital helipad after dark?

[Simpo Two]

Wild guess - they don't have the necessary instrument rating for night-flying? You need more than headlights, you have to be able to fly on instruments.

Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 30th September 10:26

[Dr Jekyll]

Simpo Two said:

Wild guess - they don't have the necessary instrument rating for night-flying? You need more than headlights, you have to be able to fly on instruments.

Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 30th September 10:26

Possibly, but getting a civvie instrument rating is not a big issue for these ex military people. The police helicopters fly at night so if that were the only problem I'm sure they would employ suitably rated pilots.

[Geneve]

It's probably a a risk/safety assessment.

In the US, HEMS do operate at night and in adverse conditions, and there have been a number of serious accidents and fatalities in such conditions, that has called into question their operational procedures.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/386371-helicopter...

Edited by Geneve on Thursday 30th September 10:37

[rpguk]

I'd say there is quite some difference between flying about at night like the police do and landing in confined built up areas at night.

Also does anyone know whether the London AA has been cut back in the past few years? Used to be a pretty regular sight but I seldom see it now.

[Simpo Two]

Dr Jekyll said:

The police helicopters fly at night so if that were the only problem I'm sure they would employ suitably rated pilots.

Perhaps it's a funding issue - the police are paid from Govt funds but Air Ambulances (I think) are charities. Also, police helicopters mostly seem to hover about feeling important, they don't have to land in strange fields dodging HT wires etc.

[Geneve]

Yes, the air ambulances are substantially funded by charitable donations.

So, if you want to keep your local AA flying, then it needds your support

See here: http://www.airambulanceassociation.co.uk/find_your...

[Simpo Two]

Yep, and don't have an accident during the hours of darkness. Or at weekends, or outside office hours due to new GP surgery times

Have you accident in daylight, preferably outside A&E, and during a slack period if they have any.

[mattdaniels]

Dr Jekyll said:

Is the main advantage of the helicopter to get the medics and equipment to the patient quicker or to get the patient to hospital quicker? Very often they seem to send the patient to a hospital in a conventional ambulance anyway.

You want to get medical assistance to the casulaties asap. Then depending on the injuries at the scene they may or may not be able to use the helicopter to transfer the injured to hospital.

[MonkeyBusiness]

Geneve said:

Yes, the air ambulances are substantially funded by charitable donations.
So, if you want to keep your local AA flying, then it needds your support
See here: http://www.airambulanceassociation.co.uk/find_your...

I live very close to the Yorkshire Air Ambulance base and see the yellow chopper up and down on a daily basis. At a local fundraising day at my local cricket club it is alarming how much they need to keep both (Leeds & Sheffield) aircraft up in the air.

[XB70]

If the numbers come up tomorrow night, a few million to the AA may help out a bit

[Munter]

Geneve said:

Yes, the air ambulances are substantially funded by charitable donations.

So, if you want to keep your local AA flying, then it needds your support

See here: http://www.airambulanceassociation.co.uk/find_your...

What he said. Particularly if you happen to like dangerous activities like track days, horse riding, or motorbikes. It's an investment in your future.

[andym1603]

Hi,
I am pretty sure the air ambulance helicopters can't fly at night is that there is only one pilot. Two are needed for after dark flying. If I remember I heard this when the local crew gave a talk at a meeting I was at.
Andy..

[Mister V]

Possibly something to do with this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/139680.stm

[Geneve]

Mister V said:

Possibly something to do with this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/139680.stm

That crash happened aaround 16.30 hrs, in July 1998. IIRC it was an engine failure (although it was a twin) followed by a wire strike.

Edited by Geneve on Friday 1st October 18:18

[thatone1967]

I think these guys do a cracking job, but I do wonder if the people who despatch them are as good. Granted, when you despatch an ambulance, it is difficult to know exactly what is happening at the scene, but how many times do you see on these programmes situations where an air ambulance is deployed and not actually needed. I have personally seen an air ambulance arrive to the scene of a dislocated knee (and there was never a question of it being any more than this).

[SamHH]

thatone1967 said:

I think these guys do a cracking job, but I do wonder if the people who despatch them are as good. Granted, when you despatch an ambulance, it is difficult to know exactly what is happening at the scene, but how many times do you see on these programmes situations where an air ambulance is deployed and not actually needed. I have personally seen an air ambulance arrive to the scene of a dislocated knee (and there was never a question of it being any more than this).

In what situations do you think an air ambulance is needed?

[Geneve]

It's important to remember that most of the costs of operating an Air Ambulance are fixed - capital, insurance, periodic maintenance, hangarage, crew, etc. Therefore, even if it is not being used, it is incurring costs.

So, for pretty much the cost of the fuel, it can be despatched to all levels of emergencies - whether life threatening or as a matter of convenience.

[Dr Jekyll]

Geneve said:

It's important to remember that most of the costs of operating an Air Ambulance are fixed - capital, insurance, periodic maintenance, hangarage, crew, etc. Therefore, even if it is not being used, it is incurring costs.

So, for pretty much the cost of the fuel, it can be despatched to all levels of emergencies - whether life threatening or as a matter of convenience.

So that's what, about £50 - £100 for a typical trip?

[Zad]

Dr Jekyll said:

Geneve said:

It's important to remember that most of the costs of operating an Air Ambulance are fixed - capital, insurance, periodic maintenance, hangarage, crew, etc. Therefore, even if it is not being used, it is incurring costs.

So, for pretty much the cost of the fuel, it can be despatched to all levels of emergencies - whether life threatening or as a matter of convenience.

So that's what, about £50 - £100 for a typical trip?

A boggo single turbine helicopter (e.g. Jet Ranger) is approx £600/hr. Twin turbine considerable more than that.