How did leaders travel during WWII?
Discussion
I've just watched the latest Apocalypse episode on C4, and it shows Churchill visting the troops in Tunisia in 1943 before a big push against Rommel, and there are surely other examples (Yalta?). It got me wondering, even if he went nowhere near the front-line, how did he travel there? Surely every route possible would put him within relateively close reach of the enemy.
Of course this is no different to visiting Afghanistan today, but surely every available form of transport in WWII carried a significant risk, whereas Cameron visiting Afghanistan today is relatively risk-free?
Of course this is no different to visiting Afghanistan today, but surely every available form of transport in WWII carried a significant risk, whereas Cameron visiting Afghanistan today is relatively risk-free?
(i've posted this in BP&T both because I expect the answer to be one of them, and because the WWII buffs hang out here!)
Churchill went to the States via Battleship (Duke of York?) once and aircraft were quite common but they did use the scenic route. On D-Day there was a bit of a "Tiff" between the King And Churchill as one wanted to view the landings and the other dis-agreed, can't remember which way round it was though.
pokethepope said:
I've just watched the latest Apocalypse episode on C4, and it shows Churchill visting the troops in Tunisia in 1943 before a big push against Rommel, and there are surely other examples (Yalta?). It got me wondering, even if he went nowhere near the front-line, how did he travel there? Surely every route possible would put him within relateively close reach of the enemy.
Of course this is no different to visiting Afghanistan today, but surely every available form of transport in WWII carried a significant risk, whereas Cameron visiting Afghanistan today is relatively risk-free?
Churchill could have got to Tunisia either by sailing or by flying. The Germans had scant anti shipping capability in the Atlantic that could threaten an allied warship going at speed so a cruiser or a battleship would have been fine. Sinking by subs tended to happen to ships coming in and out of port or escorting slow convoys.Of course this is no different to visiting Afghanistan today, but surely every available form of transport in WWII carried a significant risk, whereas Cameron visiting Afghanistan today is relatively risk-free?
(i've posted this in BP&T both because I expect the answer to be one of them, and because the WWII buffs hang out here!)
Gibraltar is around 1400 miles from the UK so it was well within range of a number of RAF bombers (2000-2700 mile ferry range), Churchill could have flown to Gibraltar and then made his way to Tunisia by sea or air. You could fly from the west of England out into the bay of Biscay and around Spain/Portugal.
Provided you stay more than 150 miles from France the Luftwaffe would find it very difficult to locate a plane in the Bay of Biscay and for most of the flight you would be well out of the range of German fighters anyway.
It would appear that Churchill and Trueman flew to Yalta, again provided they stayed more than a few hundred miles from areas controlled by the Germans it was highly unlikely that they would be under any danger. By the time of the conferences Africa was free of Germans and could be flown across quite safely, I also imagine that any aircraft carrying a national leader would be well escorted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybnzMnFEWJY
As mentioned, Churchill used a variety of aircraft during the war. At one point he was ferried around in a De Havilland Flamingo airliner. However, later he used a Consolidated Liberator (because of its long range) and later still a special Avro York transport aircraft called "Ascalon".
The US Presidents also used aircraft with Trueman being allocated a Douglas C-54/DC-4 airliner called "Sacred Cow".
Adolf Hitler and Goebbels liked to fly whereever possible - especially pre-war and early in the war. Hitler had used a special Junkers Ju52/3m transport and later a Focke Wulf Fw200 Condor airliner. The executive Condors were called after the continents and one of them was named "Amerika".
The US Presidents also used aircraft with Trueman being allocated a Douglas C-54/DC-4 airliner called "Sacred Cow".
Adolf Hitler and Goebbels liked to fly whereever possible - especially pre-war and early in the war. Hitler had used a special Junkers Ju52/3m transport and later a Focke Wulf Fw200 Condor airliner. The executive Condors were called after the continents and one of them was named "Amerika".
Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 28th November 08:46
Talksteer said:
Gibraltar is around 1400 miles from the UK so it was well within range of a number of RAF bombers (2000-2700 mile ferry range), Churchill could have flown to Gibraltar and then made his way to Tunisia by sea or air. You could fly from the west of England out into the bay of Biscay and around Spain/Portugal.
Didn't work for Leslie Howard though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Howard_%28acto...Interesting to see that a Sunderland fought off eight Ju88s in the same area.
In the early part of the war air travel across the pond simply wasn't an option so it had to be by boat. Story is that in order to outrun the U-boats the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth went full throttle all the way every crossing. This didn't go down well with the engines which is why both were retired relatively early.
Wasn't just world leaders who were at risk of course, there were scientists, military leaders and others whose untimely death (or worse, capture) due to enemy action could have been a real setback. While not in the 'indispensable' class the untimely death of Col.Glenn Miller has reverberated down the years - and it is thought he wasn't even a victim of enemy fire, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Wasn't just world leaders who were at risk of course, there were scientists, military leaders and others whose untimely death (or worse, capture) due to enemy action could have been a real setback. While not in the 'indispensable' class the untimely death of Col.Glenn Miller has reverberated down the years - and it is thought he wasn't even a victim of enemy fire, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Dogwatch said:
In the early part of the war air travel across the pond simply wasn't an option so it had to be by boat. Story is that in order to outrun the U-boats the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth went full throttle all the way every crossing. This didn't go down well with the engines which is why both were retired relatively early.
Wasn't just world leaders who were at risk of course, there were scientists, military leaders and others whose untimely death (or worse, capture) due to enemy action could have been a real setback. While not in the 'indispensable' class the untimely death of Col.Glenn Miller has reverberated down the years - and it is thought he wasn't even a victim of enemy fire, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I thought the Queens Mary and Elizabeth continued well into the 1960s. Not a bad lifespan considering the way their original market was lost to air liners.Wasn't just world leaders who were at risk of course, there were scientists, military leaders and others whose untimely death (or worse, capture) due to enemy action could have been a real setback. While not in the 'indispensable' class the untimely death of Col.Glenn Miller has reverberated down the years - and it is thought he wasn't even a victim of enemy fire, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Also, didn't the Japanese lose a military bigwig to US fighters over the Pacific?
General Yamamoto was "assassinatedf" by a squadron of P-38s after the Americans used their code breaking skills to identify the time and route of a flight he was making.
The Queen Mary was retired in 1968 and the Queen Elizabeth in 1972.
They were both just over 30 years old at the times they were retired.
The Queen Mary was retired in 1968 and the Queen Elizabeth in 1972.
They were both just over 30 years old at the times they were retired.
An old work colleague's Father flew Catalinas in the RAF during WW2. Roosevelt was anxious that his envoy meet with Stalin personally to discuss the future path of the war. The envoy was sent to the UK by ship, after which said colleague's Father was detailed to fly him from the UK to Murmansk by RAF Catalina. The distance flown meant that they had no allied fighter escort for most of the trip; the route took them around the Norwegian coast and up around North Cape. If they had been bounced my German fighters it would have been game over.
Once nearing Russian airspace they received a fighter escort. One of the overenthusiastic Yak pilots managed to bash wingtips with the Catalina while formating en route into Murmansk. That evening the Catalina crew were hosted by the Russians. The Cat Captain mentioned the formation incident, to be told that the fighter pilot responsible had already been taken away and shot!
Once nearing Russian airspace they received a fighter escort. One of the overenthusiastic Yak pilots managed to bash wingtips with the Catalina while formating en route into Murmansk. That evening the Catalina crew were hosted by the Russians. The Cat Captain mentioned the formation incident, to be told that the fighter pilot responsible had already been taken away and shot!
Eric Mc said:
As mentioned, Churchill used a variety of aircraft during the war. At one point he was ferried around in a De Havilland Flamingo airliner. However, later he used a Consolidated Liberator (because of its long range) and later still a special Avro York transport aircraft called "Ascalon".
The US Presidents also used aircraft with Trueman being allocated a Douglas C-54/DC-4 airliner called "Sacred Cow".
The Sacred Cow was initially built for President Roosevelt and it included a built-in elevator because of him being wheelchair bound, although he only actually flew in it once, which was for his trip to Yalta. I was fortunate enough to see it and go aboard when I visited the USAF Museum in Ohio.The US Presidents also used aircraft with Trueman being allocated a Douglas C-54/DC-4 airliner called "Sacred Cow".
Edited by blueedge on Monday 29th November 11:09
Dogwatch said:
Story is that in order to outrun the U-boats the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth went full throttle all the way every crossing.
At full tilt the liners were practically impossible to torpedo, and faster than the escort vessels. But it didn't always go well, Mary steamed straight through one of her escort ships close to England, with large loss of life. She was well enough to return to the US before repairs were attempted. She is now a hotel in LA, and probably the best bit of it. (Ok, Hooters was worth a visit.)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary
Edited by grumbledoak on Monday 29th November 11:30
Roosevelt travelled via the USS Quincy (CA-71 - A Baltimore Class Heavy Cruiser) after his Yalta trip and subsequent meetings in Cairo. My wife's grandfather served on board and has private snapshots of the President, the changes that they had to make on the ship (changed the doorways to accomodate wheelchair) and pics of Haile Selassie whom Roosevelt met with.
I'll see if I can get the copies of the piccies if anyone is interested.
I'll see if I can get the copies of the piccies if anyone is interested.
ErnestM said:
Roosevelt travelled via the USS Quincy (CA-71 - A Baltimore Class Heavy Cruiser) after his Yalta trip and subsequent meetings in Cairo. My wife's grandfather served on board and has private snapshots of the President, the changes that they had to make on the ship (changed the doorways to accomodate wheelchair) and pics of Haile Selassie whom Roosevelt met with.
I'll see if I can get the copies of the piccies if anyone is interested.
Yes please.I'll see if I can get the copies of the piccies if anyone is interested.
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