Complex aircraft...what if?

[Waynester]

My usual daily meanderings of total guff has been taking place between my ears...

As I understand it some aircraft are said to be designed as being unstable, such as the F22 Raptor & Eurofighter Typhoon, and that it takes powerful computers to help fly the aircraft to avoid them falling out of the sky..but the payoff being advantage is greater manoeuvrability..

As they are so dependant on 'computers' what if you could hit them with a powerful EMP would this take the aircraft down, or have I been watching to much sci-fi??

[TEKNOPUG]

Waynester said:

My usual daily meanderings of total guff has been taking place between my ears...

As I understand it some aircraft are said to be designed as being unstable, such as the F22 Raptor & Eurofighter Typhoon, and that it takes powerful computers to help fly the aircraft to avoid them falling out of the sky..but the payoff being advantage is greater manoeuvrability..

As they are so dependant on 'computers' what if you could hit them with a powerful EMP would this take the aircraft down, or have I been watching to much sci-fi??

Surely all aircraft would be brought down if hit by a big enough EMP? Well, certainly any aircraft that relies on an ECU.

[Simpo Two]

If you could fry the avionics then most planes would quickly prove Newton right I think.

My hunch is that the West tends to pile complexity on complexity on complexity and it's not always a good thing.

[Eric Mc]

Modern aircraft and their systems are tested for EMP survival as part of the development programmes.

I was speaking to a client the other day who was telling me about a previous career where he spent a number of hours in the back seat of a Harrier T10 whilst it was zapped by blasts of electrommagnetic radiation as it flew around Yeovilton.

[Roberty]

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

[Waynester]

What is the most powerful EMP possible, can it be made mobile such as on another aircraft? Then again if it could surely it would screw up it's own on-board technology.

Not having read/googled I was under the impression that both the Typhoon & Raptor could not be flown without computers...

[TEKNOPUG]

Roberty said:

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

All the control surfaces on the Typhoon are computer controlled I thought? The pilot has no direct effect; his input on the controls merely send a signal to the computer, which then activates servos etc to move control surfaces?

[Eric Mc]

TEKNOPUG said:

Roberty said:

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

All the control surfaces on the Typhoon are computer controlled I thought? The pilot has no direct effect; his input on the controls merely send a signal to the computer, which then activates servos etc to move control surfaces?

As is the situation with the 36 year old design - teh F-16.

[TEKNOPUG]

Eric Mc said:

TEKNOPUG said:

Roberty said:

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

All the control surfaces on the Typhoon are computer controlled I thought? The pilot has no direct effect; his input on the controls merely send a signal to the computer, which then activates servos etc to move control surfaces?

As is the situation with the 36 year old design - teh F-16.

The difference though being that you tell the F-16 what to do but you tell the Typhoon what you want to do?

[Eric Mc]

To subtle for me.

Most western fighter aircraft built since the advent of the F-16 have an element of fly-by-wire in them.

How does the Typhoon compare with the Rafale, Grippen, new generation Mig 29s and Sukhois?

[Mr E]

Bedazzled said:

A similar vulnerability in the future could be jamming or hacking the control signals sent to UAVs, ultimately any encryption is breakable. Imagine if someone could turn your airforce against you, armed only with a Playstation!

Bugger trying to crack the encryption. Wide band highpower noise on all frequencies should swamp them.

(and *everything* else)

I'm sure this has been considered, and said drone will simply enter a holding pattern until contact is restored (if it's not already autonomous).

[jimbobsimmonds]

Waynester said:

My usual daily meanderings of total guff has been taking place between my ears...

As I understand it some aircraft are said to be designed as being unstable, such as the F22 Raptor & Eurofighter Typhoon, and that it takes powerful computers to help fly the aircraft to avoid them falling out of the sky..but the payoff being advantage is greater manoeuvrability..

As they are so dependant on 'computers' what if you could hit them with a powerful EMP would this take the aircraft down, or have I been watching to much sci-fi??

nope, part of my job is qualifying aircraft avionics against interferance and susceptibility (Search EMC on wikipedia). and we specifically test all the components with various types of testing, including NEMP testing (Nuclear EMP)... Radio Frequency and physically sending massive shocks and signals up the cables is also tested to pretty extreme levels in some cases...

that's why i p1ss myself everytime they say to turn your phone off on the plane...

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Thursday 2nd December 17:35

[jimbobsimmonds]

Roberty said:

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

This unstable

or maybe another crash from 3 angles

that is what happens when an FCC fails...

I know the aircraft may look the same, but since none of us on here has an aerodynamics PhD its kind of like saying all cars look the same, 4 wheels, a windscreen, etc etc...

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Thursday 2nd December 17:40

[Eric Mc]

Those videos are all of the same incident.

[jimbobsimmonds]

indeed you a right sir... still think it illustrates my point well... so well i felt the need to post the even twice

[zollburgers]

jimbobsimmonds said:

that's why i p1ss myself everytime they say to turn your phone off on the plane...

Eww.

But don't they tell you to turn it off because it can interefere with the pilot's radio equipment, not interefere with the plane's systems that keep it in the air? I'm not involved with planes at all, it's just what I've heard before.

[jimbobsimmonds]

zollburgers said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

that's why i p1ss myself everytime they say to turn your phone off on the plane...

Eww.

But don't they tell you to turn it off because it can interefere with the pilot's radio equipment, not interefere with the plane's systems that keep it in the air? I'm not involved with planes at all, it's just what I've heard before.

and like i said, its my job to test this equipment and 90% of the equipment i test is in the military/aerospace sector... when was the last time you was sitting in the car and your mobile affected your radio? let's face it, the closest you can get to the cockpit is what, 15 feet?

[zollburgers]

So why can't we use phones on planes? It's an honest question, is it a historical thing or is it just for the comfort of other passengers (I hope they stay banned though).

I don't use my car radio the same as they use a radio on a plane but yes I have heard my phone doing the "ba ba ba beeep beeep beep" thin which has been picked up by my radio, usually just before it rings.

Edited by zollburgers on Thursday 2nd December 22:37

[jimbobsimmonds]

zollburgers said:

So why can't we use phones on planes? It's an honest question, is it a historical thing or is it just for the comfort of other passengers (I hope they stay banned though).

I don't use my car radio the same as they use a radio on a plane but yes I have heard my phone doing the "ba ba ba beeep beeep beep" thin which has been picked up by my radio, usually just before it rings.

Edited by zollburgers on Thursday 2nd December 22:37

but what i mean is does the ba ba babbaaa beep thing cause your radio to catastrophically fail? The systems on aircraft are hardened against serious RF levels (you think being near all those radars at an airport might be slightly more damaging than a mobile phone?).

a lot of aircraft now have mini mobile relays on them so you can actually make calls, OFCOM approved it a while back...

Personal theory is 1: because phones are annoying. 2: above 8000 feet you are unlikely to get any signal anyway... 3: when phones first came out i would imagine there was probably little research on what would happen if people were sitting on aircraft with phones. 4: What if somebody cocked up or missed a susceptibility during testing and qualififcation and something did happen?

for the reason of number 4 though i would turn mine off anyway...

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Friday 3rd December 07:51

[Roberty]

jimbobsimmonds said:

Roberty said:

You can shield electronics from the effects of EMP.

I would imagine (I don't know for sure) the electronics of warbirds like the Raptor and the Typhoon have a certain amount of shielding.

It would not make them inpervious though just think how many electronic components and systems an aircraft has!

Thing is where would you get your Large EMP from?


Also just how unstable are these aircraft? They still look very much like any other aircraft especially the Typoon!

This unstable

or maybe another crash from 3 angles

that is what happens when an FCC fails...

I know the aircraft may look the same, but since none of us on here has an aerodynamics PhD its kind of like saying all cars look the same, 4 wheels, a windscreen, etc etc...

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Thursday 2nd December 17:40

I understand the concept what I meant is that they still look like your standard idea of an aircraft rather than some sort of radical shape.

The now defunct F117 Stealth Fighter looked like it shouldn't fly but it did due to the constant corrections from the onboard computers much like the F22 and Typhoon.

To my untrained eye I could understand that same with the Grumman X-29 with it's forward swept wings or the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut but in comparison the F22 and Typhoon haven't gone that far so are they just as unstable?

Who knows but as it's all fly-by-wire these days (critically unstable designs or not)lose the computers (and all the reduntant systems) and it's time to punch out!