Powering a live aboard boat on just solar & wind power????
Discussion
Hi ladies & gents,
I'm currently writing my dissertation on the feasablitlty of wind and solar pannels, and whether the smaller domestic 12v types that you can get for boats are nothing more than a gimic or not?
My brother has a boat (princess pauline II) down on the kennet & avon near bath and I see alot of the canal dwellers use the turbines & solar panels to generate power.
However I know from my brothers boat that most of the time you have to run the engine, to charge the batteries for most of the power and the other devices are simply to top it up.
Is it possible to ditch the engine charging method and survive solely off the solar and wind generated power, or are the systems just not advanced enough yet to give that amount of power??? (depending on lifestyle obviously),
thanks for reading and any thoughts would be much appreciated, eddy
I'm currently writing my dissertation on the feasablitlty of wind and solar pannels, and whether the smaller domestic 12v types that you can get for boats are nothing more than a gimic or not?
My brother has a boat (princess pauline II) down on the kennet & avon near bath and I see alot of the canal dwellers use the turbines & solar panels to generate power.
However I know from my brothers boat that most of the time you have to run the engine, to charge the batteries for most of the power and the other devices are simply to top it up.
Is it possible to ditch the engine charging method and survive solely off the solar and wind generated power, or are the systems just not advanced enough yet to give that amount of power??? (depending on lifestyle obviously),
thanks for reading and any thoughts would be much appreciated, eddy
well surely your dissertation should prove whether this is feasonable or not?
its not that hard to do the calcs- work out total load needed over a typical week, add an inverter (acount for its efficiency- usualy around 90%), then work out how many AmpHours at 24v you need, then work out how much power a typical mutli cell volateic solar unit produces along with the wind farm (which wll produce what 15% of max?). Then work out how much you'd have to store during the day/windy periods in batteries.
Then adda 50% margin for difficult periods.
then just run a few scenarios to find out the optimum size of battery and power plant.
or get really clever and add a water source heat pump for heating, to reduce your power requirements.
job done.
its not that hard to do the calcs- work out total load needed over a typical week, add an inverter (acount for its efficiency- usualy around 90%), then work out how many AmpHours at 24v you need, then work out how much power a typical mutli cell volateic solar unit produces along with the wind farm (which wll produce what 15% of max?). Then work out how much you'd have to store during the day/windy periods in batteries.
Then adda 50% margin for difficult periods.
then just run a few scenarios to find out the optimum size of battery and power plant.
or get really clever and add a water source heat pump for heating, to reduce your power requirements.
job done.
It depends entirely on how many electrical things you want. My boat has four light bulbs and that's it. Even so I use two car batteries in parallel because I have to have enough to start the engine next day.
Modern boats tend to have much higher electrical requirements, and a live-aboard boat even more so - so no way are you going to be able to make enough power. Perhaps if you covered the entire roof of a narrow boat with solar cells you might just do it - but think of the cost and vulnerability, and what happens when it's dull and raining.
Starting an engine - especially a decent-size diesel engine like narrowboats have - takes one heck of a lot of power, and the time it would take for solar panels and windmills to replace it would probably be days if not weeks. Which would be a bugger if it didn't start first time!
Not a goer I think.
Modern boats tend to have much higher electrical requirements, and a live-aboard boat even more so - so no way are you going to be able to make enough power. Perhaps if you covered the entire roof of a narrow boat with solar cells you might just do it - but think of the cost and vulnerability, and what happens when it's dull and raining.
Starting an engine - especially a decent-size diesel engine like narrowboats have - takes one heck of a lot of power, and the time it would take for solar panels and windmills to replace it would probably be days if not weeks. Which would be a bugger if it didn't start first time!
Not a goer I think.
I know this is a hybrid, but the PV solar roof puts out up to 1.3kw and drive the boat at up to 3.5 knots. Also charge the batteries up to 80% in one day.
http://www.greenlinehybrid.com/
http://www.greenlinehybrid.com/
Simpo Two said:
Looks nice!
(Except the driving poition is stuck indoors - probably because you need so much roof!)
Yep it does look nice and the price is quite good too.(Except the driving poition is stuck indoors - probably because you need so much roof!)
Problems to my eyes are the single living cabin layout.
Whilst it could be used coastal and at sea, I think it lends itself more to inland. The air draught is then a killer for UK, apart from Windermere/Loch Lomond/Caledonian Cut etc.
I could see that concept working well on a narrow boat though.
Simpo Two said:
Right we've sorted it. Your dissertation will be very short, namely:
'It's all a load of leftie nonsense'
lol thanks for the imput guys, the title i was actually goin for was green or gimic, but i think ypu have said it. I have set out with that initial conclusion in my head, and even if I do conclude that indeed like i thought it turns out to be a load of rubbish, as long as i have the evidence to support it thats fine.'It's all a load of leftie nonsense'
Btw I was not talking about powering the boat in terms of propulsion, just in terms of power for the amineties to avoid having to run the engine do frequently.
thanks
The key to getting it to work is by reducing the boats electrical power consumption drastically. It could be feasible if all lighting was changed to LED type and all luxuries were like tv's were ditched. For things like heating, you can forget electric heating, it would have to be a wood burner using renewable timber sources, or better still go somewhere warmer where you don't even need heating.
With regards engine starting, best bet would be to fit a compressed air starter with engine driven compressor. I'd want an electric starter as backup though
.
So, make a few chages to the boats systems and yes you could do it, but to just fit solar/wind power to a normal boat would be a non starter....so to speak.
With regards engine starting, best bet would be to fit a compressed air starter with engine driven compressor. I'd want an electric starter as backup though
.So, make a few chages to the boats systems and yes you could do it, but to just fit solar/wind power to a normal boat would be a non starter....so to speak.
this has so much scope it's untrue. what is the dissertation for? it's a very open ended topic. in short, the answer is 'yes, if you have sufficiently deep pockets'.
firstly, define the boat. pissy narrowboat or a 'proper' liveaboard - 100ft long x 20ft beam? a done on the cheap build will be single skin hull with an interior resembling a pikey's caravan. one done as a proper 'house' using a commercial barge as a startpoint will be double hulled with the cavity filled with concrete and the insulation exceeding those of std. housing regs.
define that and then look at power requirements. define peak and normal loading for heat and power. doing the q value calcs for heat loss will keep you entertained for a while at least.
then, are you looking at a permanent or moveable mooring? if permanent, is it tidal? heat pumps can work well using coiled tubing layed on the river/lake bed but obviously no good if it takes a day or two to erect. can wave energy be harnessed?
heating is going to be your main issue, then appliances, then lighting.
you'll likely need a mix of PV and wind power. a large ex-commercial boat will have the stability for rigging up a large [5kw+] turbine on a mast. a narrowboat will be next to useless.
for PV's - search for photovoltaic paint. again, bigger = better [more surface, more power].
i would suggest that a thorough examination of all the technologies available, with 2 fully calculated & costed examples [40ft narrowboat and a 100ft ex-cargo vessel] will get you all the marks you need regardless of the answer.
i'd also be interested in reading your findings
firstly, define the boat. pissy narrowboat or a 'proper' liveaboard - 100ft long x 20ft beam? a done on the cheap build will be single skin hull with an interior resembling a pikey's caravan. one done as a proper 'house' using a commercial barge as a startpoint will be double hulled with the cavity filled with concrete and the insulation exceeding those of std. housing regs.
define that and then look at power requirements. define peak and normal loading for heat and power. doing the q value calcs for heat loss will keep you entertained for a while at least.
then, are you looking at a permanent or moveable mooring? if permanent, is it tidal? heat pumps can work well using coiled tubing layed on the river/lake bed but obviously no good if it takes a day or two to erect. can wave energy be harnessed?
heating is going to be your main issue, then appliances, then lighting.
you'll likely need a mix of PV and wind power. a large ex-commercial boat will have the stability for rigging up a large [5kw+] turbine on a mast. a narrowboat will be next to useless.
for PV's - search for photovoltaic paint. again, bigger = better [more surface, more power].
i would suggest that a thorough examination of all the technologies available, with 2 fully calculated & costed examples [40ft narrowboat and a 100ft ex-cargo vessel] will get you all the marks you need regardless of the answer.
i'd also be interested in reading your findings
shirt said:
this has so much scope it's untrue. what is the dissertation for? it's a very open ended topic. in short, the answer is 'yes, if you have sufficiently deep pockets'.
I completely agree with this.I tried to link to a commercially available boat, which despite the emotive "Prius" comment from somebody actually does work. It might not do what any particular reader wants it to do, especially in Northern latitudes, but the MBM review is not that negative.
Yet it appears that the OP might very well allow the direction his dissertation to be steered by some out of date comments from some anonymous twonks on the internet who are only considering old outdated technology or very limited financial outlay.
Very poor effort.
Remember to account for the storage losses (the energy lost to heat) when charging and discharging what ever energy storgae system you use. And remember to factor the costs to replace the energy storage system when it's knackered (depends on the "depth" of it's cycle is you are using batteries)
No system yet invented is currently purely viable on a financial basis btw. (grid electricity is to cheap for that still)
No system yet invented is currently purely viable on a financial basis btw. (grid electricity is to cheap for that still)
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
shirt said:
I am yet to fall in to my new role.... 
Shirt - shame on you.
You should be peddling great big f
k off generators strapped on the stern surely? 
"i could teach you, but i'd have to charge"
i've wanted to build a liveaboard for years now and have gone so far as to build a couple of 3D CAD models. some of the pics/specs i have seen over the years would blow away anything this side of a £1m+ apartment.
OP - you might want to get in touch with these guys:
http://english.qrooz.com/default.aspx?guid=1635BAE...
have a look around their site. the idea of a docking berth with integrated wind turbine might be an avenue for you to explore in your dissertation. the 'specifications' part of the site also has a comprehensive list of appliances and voltage info. for you to use as an energy guide. this site is now at least 3yrs old and he doesn't look to have sold any, so he may be open to discussions on energy/green topics.
personally, i see a liveaboard as an equal to a modern flat or duplex/terrace only with better views and similarly minded neighbours.
who knows, if i sell enough generator contracts, i may be able to build something better than my current one
PS - as max says, pure wind/solar is only viable on a lightly used weekender or with deep pockets due to cost & complexity of storage. as with most things, you pay through the nose when pioneering.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
In it is a South African chap who having built some Catamarans has decided to go all out and design a VERY green Cruiser Catamaran with big banks of batteries, all sounds of low energy lights, appliance, turbines on the Mast head, Solar Panels on the roof etc - and a towed gen-set
I suspect you are thinking of AfriCat's 46' catamaran - Green Motion. Hopefully Google will throw up the specs for it.well the spec. on the qrooz says it has a bulthaup b1 kitchen. bulthaup says that is priced from £20,000!
finger in the air guess is £750k i reckon. if they were under £500k he would have sold more than 2 so far [site says nos 3&4 are in build] as that buys you a lot of converted barge.you could buy a much bigger hull with fresh commercial cert. and overhauled engines/command for a fifth of that. then just play grand designs with the rest. view the hull as 'foundations' and just forget it's afloat from a design standpoint. hardest part is getting light in, but with a large enough boat you could install light wells as a kind of hull level courtyard.
for the money it's a nice toy / holiday home and would make a cool bar, but as a liveaboard i think it's too small. it's designed [i think] to be road freighted which [unless you pay an extortionate fee for heavy transport ] means a max. beam of 15ft. i reckon you need 20ft internal beam to make it a livable prospect.
finger in the air guess is £750k i reckon. if they were under £500k he would have sold more than 2 so far [site says nos 3&4 are in build] as that buys you a lot of converted barge.you could buy a much bigger hull with fresh commercial cert. and overhauled engines/command for a fifth of that. then just play grand designs with the rest. view the hull as 'foundations' and just forget it's afloat from a design standpoint. hardest part is getting light in, but with a large enough boat you could install light wells as a kind of hull level courtyard.
for the money it's a nice toy / holiday home and would make a cool bar, but as a liveaboard i think it's too small. it's designed [i think] to be road freighted which [unless you pay an extortionate fee for heavy transport
] means a max. beam of 15ft. i reckon you need 20ft internal beam to make it a livable prospect.Edited by shirt on Thursday 10th February 17:31
shirt said:
this has so much scope it's untrue. what is the dissertation for? it's a very open ended topic. in short, the answer is 'yes, if you have sufficiently deep pockets'... you'll likely need a mix of PV and wind power. a large ex-commercial boat will have the stability for rigging up a large [5kw+] turbine on a mast. a narrowboat will be next to useless.
I take your point but for things to work in reality (where I was coming from) they have to be affordable. It is technically possible to get man to Mars but it's not going to happen because it's too expensive - and the reason that most people want to live on boats is because it's much cheaper than a house. Turn it into a nautical Grand Designs and you'll get headlines but little take-up I feel. And if it isn't taken up it's not going to save the polar bears Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff