Coffee Machines
Discussion
Just been reading a thread that is months old, talking about coffee machines. Mrs LT is buying me a coffee machine as a present, but wants me to choose. But the budget mentioned in that thread is OTT for me (£500)
I have been using an espresso machine for a few years, the coffee it produces seems fine to me but the steamer seems to be a bit inconsistent, sometime produces good foamy milk, next time just seems to warm it, despite sticking to the same routine when doing it.
So been spending some time reading up on stuff over the past few days, and I am struggling to understand the difference in price in certain models, and wondered if anyone can shed any light.
Bean to cup - I get that, more expensive, probably starting at £300 and understand why. But below that, the range of price of units that espress (if thats how to say it) and has a steamer seems huge. Anything from £100 to £300, and I am not looking at Nespresso type machines by the way (takes the fun out of it!)
Reading the 'description' of each model seems that 15 bar pressure is fairly common place, see a couple at the top of the price range that go to 19 - is this worth the extra money? Also seen a few that have dual boilers, so yep get why they might be more money - but beyond that, really can't see that much difference other than what they look like.
Can anyone explain it for me? Is there any point spending £250 on a unit that will do exactly the same as either the one I have or say a £100 unit? Will the coffee be the same?
I have been using an espresso machine for a few years, the coffee it produces seems fine to me but the steamer seems to be a bit inconsistent, sometime produces good foamy milk, next time just seems to warm it, despite sticking to the same routine when doing it.
So been spending some time reading up on stuff over the past few days, and I am struggling to understand the difference in price in certain models, and wondered if anyone can shed any light.
Bean to cup - I get that, more expensive, probably starting at £300 and understand why. But below that, the range of price of units that espress (if thats how to say it) and has a steamer seems huge. Anything from £100 to £300, and I am not looking at Nespresso type machines by the way (takes the fun out of it!)
Reading the 'description' of each model seems that 15 bar pressure is fairly common place, see a couple at the top of the price range that go to 19 - is this worth the extra money? Also seen a few that have dual boilers, so yep get why they might be more money - but beyond that, really can't see that much difference other than what they look like.
Can anyone explain it for me? Is there any point spending £250 on a unit that will do exactly the same as either the one I have or say a £100 unit? Will the coffee be the same?
Consistency and accuracy of temperature & pressure in the head.
Dual boiler means you should be able to steam your milk for the latte/cappuccino without it affecting the espresso side, otherwise you need to purge hot water to get it down to the temp required for extracting all the beans' flavours.
Ideally, 9 bar is what's used commercially, and pushing 15 or 19 bar gives the water less time in contact with the grinds.
As you're doing it manually, you could tamp the grinds firmer in the basket, so you get a similar 25 secs or so pour time, the Barista aims for in the coffee bar.
Dual boiler means you should be able to steam your milk for the latte/cappuccino without it affecting the espresso side, otherwise you need to purge hot water to get it down to the temp required for extracting all the beans' flavours.
Ideally, 9 bar is what's used commercially, and pushing 15 or 19 bar gives the water less time in contact with the grinds.
As you're doing it manually, you could tamp the grinds firmer in the basket, so you get a similar 25 secs or so pour time, the Barista aims for in the coffee bar.
PJ S said:
Consistency and accuracy of temperature & pressure in the head.
Dual boiler means you should be able to steam your milk for the latte/cappuccino without it affecting the espresso side, otherwise you need to purge hot water to get it down to the temp required for extracting all the beans' flavours.
Ideally, 9 bar is what's used commercially, and pushing 15 or 19 bar gives the water less time in contact with the grinds.
As you're doing it manually, you could tamp the grinds firmer in the basket, so you get a similar 25 secs or so pour time, the Barista aims for in the coffee bar.
Thanks. So the higher the bar pressure isn't always the best, interesting.Dual boiler means you should be able to steam your milk for the latte/cappuccino without it affecting the espresso side, otherwise you need to purge hot water to get it down to the temp required for extracting all the beans' flavours.
Ideally, 9 bar is what's used commercially, and pushing 15 or 19 bar gives the water less time in contact with the grinds.
As you're doing it manually, you could tamp the grinds firmer in the basket, so you get a similar 25 secs or so pour time, the Barista aims for in the coffee bar.
Got this one just last week from John Lewis (£200)
(sorry about the rubbish pic, iPhone)
Out of all of them (Inc the more expensive gaggia etc) it felt very solid and weighty
I've been using illy ground coffee and some ese (easy serve expresso) pods and both create a grand cuppa!
The milk steamer seems decent and can give hot water to create a americano too!
All in all highly recommended!
(sorry about the rubbish pic, iPhone)
Out of all of them (Inc the more expensive gaggia etc) it felt very solid and weighty
I've been using illy ground coffee and some ese (easy serve expresso) pods and both create a grand cuppa!
The milk steamer seems decent and can give hot water to create a americano too!
All in all highly recommended!
RichB said:
o you mean 0.9 bar? My LaPavoni cycles from about 0.75 bar and 0.9 bar.
Pressure numbers will be relative to the positioning of the sensor.Some, as yours does, use a 1/10th scale, so measures the pressure in the boiler.
By the time the water meets the coffee grinds in the head, there must be a 10:1 factor involved.
Most gauges have coloured zones or clearly indicate the optimal pressure the needle should point at.
With some prosumer units, tweaking the PID screw, also affects temperature, which depending on the bean blend, can change the flavours extracted - which may or may not be favourable.
PJ S said:
RichB said:
o you mean 0.9 bar? My LaPavoni cycles from about 0.75 bar and 0.9 bar.
Pressure numbers will be relative to the positioning of the sensor.Some, as yours does, use a 1/10th scale, so measures the pressure in the boiler.
By the time the water meets the coffee grinds in the head, there must be a 10:1 factor involved.
Most gauges have coloured zones or clearly indicate the optimal pressure the needle should point at.
With some prosumer units, tweaking the PID screw, also affects temperature, which depending on the bean blend, can change the flavours extracted - which may or may not be favourable.
The gauge is definitely calibrated in Bar (not Bar/10) which seems correct 1 x Bar is 14 psi which feels about right for the pressure of the steam as it exits the frother tube (because atmospheric pressure is 1.0 Bar one adds 1.0 to the gauge pressure for absolute pressure) but it's certainly not 140 psi.
This may be the difference between the lever machines and non-lever machines which simply rely on steam pressure, I don't know. But certainly chatting on http://www.home-barista.com/ others with the same machine have confirmed this is the correct pressure to give the water temperature at the head so as not to burn the coffee.
PJ S said:
Pressure numbers will be relative to the positioning of the sensor.
yes, It measures boiler pressurePJ S said:
Some, as yours does, use a 1/10th scale, so measures the pressure in the boiler.
This I don't get, the pressure in the boiler is obviously 0.9 bar or about 12psi - so clearly it's not reading 1/10th scale. As I mentioned in my last post you could argue that one needs to add 1 to the value to get absolute pressure but that's not relevant to a discussion on coffee 
PJ S said:
By the time the water meets the coffee grinds in the head, there must be a 10:1 factor involved.
Do you mean that because the nozzle (or jet) is tiny it effectively multiplies the pressure on exit, isn't this what the lever is for?I'm really not being obtuse, just trying to understand what you're saying...
Thanks for the replies, although it has drifted OT slightly.
So, looks like the Gaggia Classic is a good option (I dont think its the best looking though, more important for Mrs LT than me), although that Delonghi unit pictured seems to have a few extra functions (like hot water as well as steam). Also seems like its worth spending the extra despite the features being pretty much the same.
The grinder I have was £30 I think, some German make. I assume the benfit here is consistency of the ground coffee (i.e. beans are ground to a consistent powder)? Perhaps a new one might have to go on the Christmas list.
So, looks like the Gaggia Classic is a good option (I dont think its the best looking though, more important for Mrs LT than me), although that Delonghi unit pictured seems to have a few extra functions (like hot water as well as steam). Also seems like its worth spending the extra despite the features being pretty much the same.
The grinder I have was £30 I think, some German make. I assume the benfit here is consistency of the ground coffee (i.e. beans are ground to a consistent powder)? Perhaps a new one might have to go on the Christmas list.
My experience with the Gaggia isn't great, when steaming milk for 2 people it would get to 35 degrees and the steam would run out, leaving you with long waits while the steam built up again to continue. My old Saeco machine was much better in that respect.
I'm trying to decide between the Rancilio Silvia V3 and the Ascaso Steel Uno to replace mine.
I'm trying to decide between the Rancilio Silvia V3 and the Ascaso Steel Uno to replace mine.
RichB said:
I'm really not being obtuse, just trying to understand what you're saying...
I know you're not being obtuse (or acute), but I meant tenth as in by comparison to the figure I mentioned.All figures are bar, so let's put psi out of the discussion as it is irrelevant.
It's the equivalent of one car's rev counter being x1000, and another's being x100 - the various bits are moving at the same speed, it's just the display that has different numbers.
I don't know how the pressure gauges are cited in all machines, but as I said, the La San Marco machines (but one of many) use a gauge where the numbers are in whole bars, rather than tenths.
In fact, they've a dual gauge - one for the group head, and the other for the second boiler for the steam arm (and the hot water? ), so you can steam milk for the latte/cap at the same time as pulling the espresso shot.
The bottom line is, espressos are extracted under pressure - 9 bar - in commercial outlets. It must be cheaper or due to only having one boiler, that your gauge's sensor is cited at that end, rather than in the head.
The fact it's labelled as Professional doesn't mean it's a commercial machine - just a high end domestic or small volume office type.
Your tamping will affect the pressure, so if you see variance in the gauge between shots, then I'd imagine it's a slight difference in tamp strength - an easy way to see would be a number of back-back backflushes.
As that disc is rubber, then there should be no change in resistance the water meets in the head, ergo the gauge should consistently display the same value.
I would go for the Rancilo or Gaggia in this price bracket - these are decen machines and do well what they propose to do.
Most lower price machines often quote phanthasy pump pressures to lure the unknowing - think hifi and preposterous wattage
As stated above most commercial machines deliver 9-10 bar from the pump an this consitantly - I doubt a machine for 100 quid will produce more than 3 - 4 whatever it says on the tin (I think the boys from coffeegeek.com have tasted several contenders years ago)
Very imporatnt to go for a decent grinder and grind each portion freshly - both machines will require that you adjust the grind ocasionally (different beanz, humidity)
Have fun
The machine with the lower presuure pictured is imo a hand lever machine and the pressure stated is boiler pressure vs pump pressure (all pump machines have a boiler two and te manometer usually measures boiler pressure - with my La Scala usually 1.4 bar and 9 bar on pump)
Most lower price machines often quote phanthasy pump pressures to lure the unknowing - think hifi and preposterous wattage
As stated above most commercial machines deliver 9-10 bar from the pump an this consitantly - I doubt a machine for 100 quid will produce more than 3 - 4 whatever it says on the tin (I think the boys from coffeegeek.com have tasted several contenders years ago)
Very imporatnt to go for a decent grinder and grind each portion freshly - both machines will require that you adjust the grind ocasionally (different beanz, humidity)
Have fun
The machine with the lower presuure pictured is imo a hand lever machine and the pressure stated is boiler pressure vs pump pressure (all pump machines have a boiler two and te manometer usually measures boiler pressure - with my La Scala usually 1.4 bar and 9 bar on pump)
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