Tell me about enzymes in meat
Discussion
Not sure if this sould be in food or science really but here goes:
As some will know I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking over the last few months. I have had a few strange results with some of the food that I have cooked with the texture going mushy and livery with certain things. A particular example was venison haunch cooked at 56dc for 8 hrs. The texture came out really pappy and unpleasant, where as a piece of haunch from exactly the same animal cooked at 80dc for 8hrs came out exactly as you would expect stewed meat to end up and very nice it was too. The problem hasn’t happened with beef for example which I will regularly cook (tougher cuts) for long periods of time at 56dc, the result being a nice steak texture.
I am guessing (but I have no real knowledge) that venison issue is due to a reaction with enzymes breaking the meat down quickly at certain temperatures and those enzymes are denatured quickly at higher temperatures so don’t have the chance to mess up the texture? This obviously isn’t the case with the beef that I have cooked so I can only assume that the beef doesn’t have the same type of enzymes.
Does anyone have any more information about this? Specifically which types of animals are susceptible to this issue? I was thinking that mutton would be an excellent meat to cook low and slow but still med rare but I'm loath to try it out on something, putting lots of time effort and money into it with unpleasant end results.
As some will know I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking over the last few months. I have had a few strange results with some of the food that I have cooked with the texture going mushy and livery with certain things. A particular example was venison haunch cooked at 56dc for 8 hrs. The texture came out really pappy and unpleasant, where as a piece of haunch from exactly the same animal cooked at 80dc for 8hrs came out exactly as you would expect stewed meat to end up and very nice it was too. The problem hasn’t happened with beef for example which I will regularly cook (tougher cuts) for long periods of time at 56dc, the result being a nice steak texture.
I am guessing (but I have no real knowledge) that venison issue is due to a reaction with enzymes breaking the meat down quickly at certain temperatures and those enzymes are denatured quickly at higher temperatures so don’t have the chance to mess up the texture? This obviously isn’t the case with the beef that I have cooked so I can only assume that the beef doesn’t have the same type of enzymes.
Does anyone have any more information about this? Specifically which types of animals are susceptible to this issue? I was thinking that mutton would be an excellent meat to cook low and slow but still med rare but I'm loath to try it out on something, putting lots of time effort and money into it with unpleasant end results.
Pete Franklin said:
Not sure if this sould be in food or science really but here goes:
As some will know I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking over the last few months. I have had a few strange results with some of the food that I have cooked with the texture going mushy and livery with certain things. A particular example was venison haunch cooked at 56dc for 8 hrs. The texture came out really pappy and unpleasant, where as a piece of haunch from exactly the same animal cooked at 80dc for 8hrs came out exactly as you would expect stewed meat to end up and very nice it was too. The problem hasn’t happened with beef for example which I will regularly cook (tougher cuts) for long periods of time at 56dc, the result being a nice steak texture.
I am guessing (but I have no real knowledge) that venison issue is due to a reaction with enzymes breaking the meat down quickly at certain temperatures and those enzymes are denatured quickly at higher temperatures so don’t have the chance to mess up the texture? This obviously isn’t the case with the beef that I have cooked so I can only assume that the beef doesn’t have the same type of enzymes.
Does anyone have any more information about this? Specifically which types of animals are susceptible to this issue? I was thinking that mutton would be an excellent meat to cook low and slow but still med rare but I'm loath to try it out on something, putting lots of time effort and money into it with unpleasant end results.
Sounds like your heading into Heston territory....As some will know I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking over the last few months. I have had a few strange results with some of the food that I have cooked with the texture going mushy and livery with certain things. A particular example was venison haunch cooked at 56dc for 8 hrs. The texture came out really pappy and unpleasant, where as a piece of haunch from exactly the same animal cooked at 80dc for 8hrs came out exactly as you would expect stewed meat to end up and very nice it was too. The problem hasn’t happened with beef for example which I will regularly cook (tougher cuts) for long periods of time at 56dc, the result being a nice steak texture.
I am guessing (but I have no real knowledge) that venison issue is due to a reaction with enzymes breaking the meat down quickly at certain temperatures and those enzymes are denatured quickly at higher temperatures so don’t have the chance to mess up the texture? This obviously isn’t the case with the beef that I have cooked so I can only assume that the beef doesn’t have the same type of enzymes.
Does anyone have any more information about this? Specifically which types of animals are susceptible to this issue? I was thinking that mutton would be an excellent meat to cook low and slow but still med rare but I'm loath to try it out on something, putting lots of time effort and money into it with unpleasant end results.
dhf said:
Sounds like your heading into Heston territory....
well i'm not sure about that- there is a difference between experimenting with techniques and actually being good at cooking 
just interested to find some answers.Its not the kind of info that is readily available, as I guess there aren't that many people doing it. there are a few on here who have a bit of experience with sous vide though and I would assume there are a few biologists on pistonheads??
DoctorX said:
I very much doubt there'd be any active enzymes in the meat, activity is generally lost pretty rapidly after death unless deep frozen straight away.
I suspect this is more down to anatomy than biochemistry.
I'm not sure that you are right about this. It was my understanding that the break down of proteins by naturally occurring enzymes is the whole reason for hanging meat for weeks. This will still be occurring 7 weeks or more after death before bacterial spoilage ruins the product, in the correct conditions of course.I suspect this is more down to anatomy than biochemistry.
Metabolism will stop fairly quickly, but enzymes are just proteins and remain capable of catalysing reactions so long as they are not denatured. The peroxidase in liver will make it fizz away in hydrogen peroxide long after the animal died, for instance.
I suppose the question is how long your slow heating kept the flesh at a temperature warm enough to allow the enzymes to catalyse the breakdown of the flesh and cool enough not to cook the enzymes.
I suppose the question is how long your slow heating kept the flesh at a temperature warm enough to allow the enzymes to catalyse the breakdown of the flesh and cool enough not to cook the enzymes.
ked unless the tissue is deep frozen sharpish. Mind you, they're human ones....Having a quick read of Harold McGee. Enzymes are responsible for the changes you experienced (he talks about some fish ones turning the fish mushy) he also mentions that cooking stops them from making those changes. I'd take a guess that 80deg cooked them and stopped the reaction but 56deg somehow sped the process up and in this case it wasn't actually cooked.
Great feedback, I'm sure we are on the right track with this.
The issue is not the meat getting up to temp as in an efficient bath it only takes 30 mins or so which is no longer than conventional cooking.
The problem is that it happens with some meat but not other under the same conditions. My hunch is that its something to do with the wild venison having some different enzymes to reared meat. I imagine that they produce a lot more adrenaline and lactic acid as a survival response. I guess what I really need is an idea of which meats are susceptible or some scientific reasoning for the differences I am experiencing.
The issue is not the meat getting up to temp as in an efficient bath it only takes 30 mins or so which is no longer than conventional cooking.
The problem is that it happens with some meat but not other under the same conditions. My hunch is that its something to do with the wild venison having some different enzymes to reared meat. I imagine that they produce a lot more adrenaline and lactic acid as a survival response. I guess what I really need is an idea of which meats are susceptible or some scientific reasoning for the differences I am experiencing.
Just to add another variable. Wild venison can have a hard time before it gets into the butchers. It can get badly bruised (after getting shot) rolling down hillsides or if dragged too enthusiastically with, say, a quad.
Also if too tightly packed into an Argo-cat or similar it can 'heat up' where it is in contact with other beasts if left for any time.
This might explain why one haunch was fine and the other not.
I'm just guessing.
Also if too tightly packed into an Argo-cat or similar it can 'heat up' where it is in contact with other beasts if left for any time.
This might explain why one haunch was fine and the other not.
I'm just guessing.
Edited by tenex on Saturday 9th June 06:14
tenex said:
Just to add another variable. Wild venison can have a hard time before it gets into the butchers. It can get badly bruised (after getting shot) rolling down hillsides or if dragged too enthusiastically with, say, a quad.
Also if too tightly packed into an Argo-cat or similar it can 'heat up' where it is in contact with other beasts if left for any time.
This might explain why one haunch was fine and the other not.
I'm just guessing.
Just to clarify, both cuts were from the same haunch. I think the temp difference explains a bit why it happened to one and not the other. The difference is between different species and your info above is relevant to that issue.Also if too tightly packed into an Argo-cat or similar it can 'heat up' where it is in contact with other beasts if left for any time.
This might explain why one haunch was fine and the other not.
I'm just guessing.
Edited by tenex on Saturday 9th June 06:14
Pete Franklin said:
Just to clarify, both cuts were from the same haunch. I think the temp difference explains a bit why it happened to one and not the other. The difference is between different species and your info above is relevant to that issue.
What tenex says is very true for handling of wild Venison,also i'd imagine that different shots produce different qualities of meat on the adrelene front,i've shot deer straight through the heart and they've never known what hit them,i've shot others who have run 20-30 yards minus a heart.i shot a young Fallow Stag,one side of a leg was like the sweetest lamb you've ever tasted and the other,can't remember if it was ball side had a tint of stag in it.Thats the joys of wild meat particulary venison.
I used to be in the Fish trade and memory makes me think that there is a rough formula of lost protein over time frome kill and temperature the fish is kept at.
Roger645 said:
It would be really great if we could have a sticky thread with the temp data etc in there. I'm not doing anything sous vide at the moment but am thinking of trying some and to have access to existing data would be really good.
Agreed and it doesnt have to be limited to sous vide. Something detailing times, temperatures preparation, cooking method and end result (good or bad) I'm not sure how best to do it. A wiki page might be best?dhf said:
What tenex says is very true for handling of wild Venison,also i'd imagine that different shots produce different qualities of meat on the adrelene front,i've shot deer straight through the heart and they've never known what hit them,i've shot others who have run 20-30 yards minus a heart.i shot a young Fallow Stag,one side of a leg was like the sweetest lamb you've ever tasted and the other,can't remember if it was ball side had a tint of stag in it.
Thats the joys of wild meat particulary venison.
I used to be in the Fish trade and memory makes me think that there is a rough formula of lost protein over time frome kill and temperature the fish is kept at.
Interesting stuff, I'd heard about the kill affecting the meat, but wasnt aware of such marked differences in different parts of the same animal. I'd like to know a little bit more about the science of what causes these differences.Thats the joys of wild meat particulary venison.
I used to be in the Fish trade and memory makes me think that there is a rough formula of lost protein over time frome kill and temperature the fish is kept at.
ed1983 said:
I think 8 hours at 56dc is too short a cooking time for a haunch of venison as it has a lot of collagen to break down into gelatin. This temperature will cook the meat to M/R but take a lot longer to tenderise.
I disagree. The haunch on this beast at least was extremely tender and was best cooked quickly in my opinion. when I cooked a piece short and hot in the oven it was at least as tender as fillet steak. the only reason i cooked it sous vide for that long in the first place was due to logistics of a meal i was cooking the meat was meltingy tender but had a pappy texture. I think in furure i would only take it to the temperature i want and not hold it there for any time.I agree in principle with what you are saying but I dont think it applies to haunch of venison. Shoulder, yes but i would avoid the technique with venison due to the texture issues i have experienced.
Edited by Pete Franklin on Monday 11th June 11:54
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