Best Wine To Buy For Investment

[Mr Trophy]

Hi All,

Sorry if this in the wrong section, however, wondering if anyone does the about?

It's something I am keen to look into and "collect" some vodka but don't take it very seriously.

I got myself a bottle Armand de Brignac (Gold) and like the idea of keeping it for years then opening it for a special occasion, however, don't know if it's possible etc.

[Davey S2]

Any classed Bordeaux but preferably first growth (lafite, latour, margaux, Haut-Brion, Mouton) in a good year.

Alternatively any of the big name Burgindies or other 'boutique' wines (Petrus, le Pin etc)

The bad news is you will have to spend a fortune to buy a case in the first place and in order to maximise the value will need to have it professionally stored which will cost an annual fee.

Just but some shares instead and buy a few cheaper bottles to drink and enjoy.

[Mobile Chicane]

If you're looking at 'keeping anything for years', invest in a proper wine cabinet to keep the temperature constant:

http://www.johnlewis.com/samsung-rw33ebss1-wine-co...

[Cheese Mechanic]

Davey S2 said:

The bad news is you will have to spend a fortune to buy a case in the first place and in order to maximise the value will need to have it professionally stored which will cost an annual fee.
Just but some shares instead and buy a few cheaper bottles to drink and enjoy.

My thoughts exactly. The fact is specialist investments require specialist knowledge , the mere fact you are having to ask what to go for
suggests you do not have that knowledge, and thus not a good idea on your part.

[LooneyTunes]

Davey S2 said:

Any classed Bordeaux but preferably first growth (lafite, latour, margaux, Haut-Brion, Mouton) in a good year.

Alternatively any of the big name Burgindies or other 'boutique' wines (Petrus, le Pin etc)

The bad news is you will have to spend a fortune to buy a case in the first place and in order to maximise the value will need to have it professionally stored which will cost an annual fee.

Just but some shares instead and buy a few cheaper bottles to drink and enjoy.

You also need to know who to buy from (there are fakes out there) and avoid the (unregulated) "wine investment" firms like the plague. Have seen too many with unrealistic pricing and poor stock handling processes to be of major concern (very real risk that if they go under you'll be left with nothing).

Tbh, I only buy wine I'd want to (and be prepared to) drink, although I do have a few cases that I'd consider selling at some point in the future.

There are decent returns on more modest wines, but you really need to know what you're buying...

[AmitG]

OP - give Berry Brothers & Rudd a call or visit (www.bbr.com)

They do a "cellar plan" where you put in a certain amount of money (your choice), specify your parameters, and they will then select the most appropriate investment-grade wines for you. They also have proper storage facilities, which is very important. You can either sell the wines later on, or have them delivered to your house.

You can monitor your "cellar" through their website, including up to date valuation information, although you need to take the valuations with a pinch of salt since the market for some of these wines is not very liquid, so to speak.

As others have said, red Bordeaux makes up the majority of the wine investment market. First growth Bordeaux are the equivalent of blue-chip stocks. Burgundy is probably second biggest (not sure). You generally buy by the case, not the bottle.

My policy is to only buy wines that I want to drink myself when they reach maturity. That way I figure I can never lose; in the worst case I just drink it IMHO, buying wine purely as an investment play, with no interest in the product itself, is not much fun. But everyone is different.

There are some rogues in this game. BBR are totally trustworthy, they have been in business for over 300 years I believe.

[LooneyTunes]

AmitG said:

There are some rogues in this game. BBR are totally trustworthy, they have been in business for over 300 years I believe.

I would largely agree with that, but with the caveat that they can sometimes be a little bullish about the investment value of some wines - especially when trying to sell them some years after release. Certainly not the worst offenders in this regard though.

FWIW, I would never buy a cellar plan from anywhere (although if I did want one then BBR would be towards the top of the list) simply because I want the wines I want.

The other outfit I'd look at would be Farr Vintners.

ETA:

Mobile Chicane said:

If you're looking at 'keeping anything for years', invest in a proper wine cabinet to keep the temperature constant:

http://www.johnlewis.com/samsung-rw33ebss1-wine-co...

That's much better than nothing, but there's no airflow through the unit (which you'd get with a better unit designed for storage).

OP, only store at home if it's for your own consumption: there are tax and provenance benefits to having wine professionally stored. Lots of people won't touch fine wines once the "in bond" storage chain has been broken (unless it's massively discounted).

Edited by LooneyTunes on Friday 2nd August 07:12

[ErnestWorthing]

Mr Trophy said:

I got myself a bottle Armand de Brignac (Gold) and like the idea of keeping it for years then opening it for a special occasion, however, don't know if it's possible etc.

AdB is a non vintage Champagne from Cattier. I wouldn't recommend holding it for over 5 years (in proper storage), its unlikely to improve. You'd be better with a dom perignon, which improves remarkably well given 10-20 years, 1990 is drinking fantastically at the moment.

[Mobile Chicane]

LooneyTunes said:

Mobile Chicane said:

If you're looking at 'keeping anything for years', invest in a proper wine cabinet to keep the temperature constant:

http://www.johnlewis.com/samsung-rw33ebss1-wine-co...

That's much better than nothing, but there's no airflow through the unit (which you'd get with a better unit designed for storage).

Of course I mean at home.

It isn't clear from the original post and title what the OP is asking. Is it: do I buy wine as an investment? Or, can I keep a bottle of posh champagne for a few years and open it on a special occasion?

If the latter, it needs constant temperature. Under the stairs or in the garage simply won't do.

[zetec]

I'm sure there used to be a poster on these boards who was a fine wine seller/auctioneer? Can't think of his name though.

[Bullett]

I have 6 cases in BBR.

2 cases are 2009 Margaux for my Son and godson (both born in 2009) not ready to drink for another 10 years but I'll probably not release them until the boys are 18. They can then be sold or more likely drunk (by the dad's) around £40 a bottle when I purchased.

Some CNDP and a couple of whites that are nearly ready.

I like picking them out and see it as a way of getting to quality wines 'cheap' by buying before they get expensive. One of the whites is selling for double what I paid.

I don't expect to make any money, so all that is a bit irrelevant!

[Cheib]

Professional storage isn't that much it's about £8 or £9 a case per year.

BBR have got a fantastic reputation but they aren't very competitive on pricing...they're as good as anyone else to buy en primeur from but once things get a bit more opaque they are expensive. I've bought wine from them in the past but they are reassuringly expensive.

Definitely buy what you'd like to buy but when it comes to investment it depends over what period you want to do it for. If it's for the very long term there are relatively few wines that have established provenance for lasting 20 years or so....certainly there's not much new world that has and there are some eye wateringly expensive new world wines.

I am not convinced about wine as an investment....it needs storing, you'll be charged 20% to sell it when you do want to sell and it's a market that is full of "fluff". I have worked for investment banking for 20 years....banks are banned from things like "pumping and dumping" or writing research reports to support their own inventory. Wine Merchants (even the best) do that all the time.

[LooneyTunes]

Bullett said:

I like picking them out and see it as a way of getting to quality wines 'cheap' by buying before they get expensive. One of the whites is selling for double what I paid.

Beating "Bob" used to be quite rewarding, on paper at least. Used to see some wines more than tripling in price overnight after being blessed with 100pt scores. Sadly, en primeur is sufficiently broken now that that sort of thing no longer seems to happen.

Cheib said:

you'll be charged 20% to sell it

That's an outright sale rate? 10% is closer to the norm for brokerage (less in some cases (in fact, IIRC, I received something from Berrys this week offering even lower)).

[Bullett]

I assumed he meant VAT.

[LooneyTunes]

You don't need to pay the VAT if you buy/hold/sell in bond. That, and the duty, only becomes payable when you renove from bond.

[Cheib]

LooneyTunes said:

Bullett said:

I like picking them out and see it as a way of getting to quality wines 'cheap' by buying before they get expensive. One of the whites is selling for double what I paid.

Beating "Bob" used to be quite rewarding, on paper at least. Used to see some wines more than tripling in price overnight after being blessed with 100pt scores. Sadly, en primeur is sufficiently broken now that that sort of thing no longer seems to happen.

Cheib said:

you'll be charged 20% to sell it

That's an outright sale rate? 10% is closer to the norm for brokerage (less in some cases (in fact, IIRC, I received something from Berrys this week offering even lower)).

Farr charge 10% for brokerage and 20% for an outright sale http://www.farrvintners.com/sell.php

Berry's charge 10% at BBX but you are unlikely to attain retail prices so 10% at Berry's on BBX is probably the same as selling to Farr at 20% behind their list price?

Either way if you look at retail prices which is how most people would value their wine I think you're probably looking at 20% discount to that to sell your wine especially it it's something "unusual". I very much doubt a wine merchant would pay you any more than 20% less than retail.

That said I've never sold any wine....but before I buy any wine I always have a good look on winesearcher!

[LooneyTunes]

Cheib said:

Farr charge 10% for brokerage and 20% for an outright sale http://www.farrvintners.com/sell.php

Berry's charge 10% at BBX but you are unlikely to attain retail prices so 10% at Berry's on BBX is probably the same as selling to Farr at 20% behind their list price?

Either way if you look at retail prices which is how most people would value their wine I think you're probably looking at 20% discount to that to sell your wine especially it it's something "unusual". I very much doubt a wine merchant would pay you any more than 20% less than retail.

That said I've never sold any wine....but before I buy any wine I always have a good look on winesearcher!

I'd agree with most of that, but with the caveats that:

1) Anyone valuing their wine at retail is probably in for a nasty shock; and

2) Anyone prepared to offer outright sale is probably only going to do so on stock that they're confident won't hang about too long - in which case you might as well put it through on brokerage if you don't need the cash immediately. Not to mention that Farr's is wholesale only, and list pricing reflects this (L-20% is a big hit vs. retail, especially if the latter is what someone expects to receive).

From memory, BBX is IB only so most would/should only expect wholesale pricing (which by and large is what wine seems to sell at on there). But you get to set your own prices, which shows in some of the crazy prices sometimes on there. That said, I did get a bid on one wine (only case I've ever sold) that I'd speculatively listed on there in line with most of the wine-searcher prices. Never saw the cash though, as it went straight back in to more wine...

"BBX Bids" however, now that's an entirely different kettle of fish. I have the "allow bids on my wine" set to "on", just in case someone really wants sometime I have too much of, but am getting a bit fed up of chancers and may turn it off soon. One that sticks in my mind from the past week or two is the unsolicited bid on 24x375s of 01 Rieussec: £360. Nobody of sound mind would sell for that!

As soon as they're out of bond, value is really difficult to determine - nowhere near retail in most cases - as people have to REALLY trust the provenance/storage to get close on pricing to IB.

It does sometimes come as a surprise to people who appear on the various wine boards from time to time, with a special bottle (which might or might not be) that has been stored under the stairs for 20 year, that nobody will offer them anywhere close to the £hundreds they think it must be worth.