Would you order a wine pairing blind ?
Discussion
Went out with MrsLT a couple of nights ago to a multiple Michelin starred restaurant and was, as usual, faced presented with the option of order a wine pairing.
They had two on offer: one at ~£150/head, the other at ~£250/head.
I’d checked the wine list beforehand and there was no further info about the wines themselves or the size of pours (which I quite like to see in order to keep an eye on, and pace, alcohol intake). Not a huge surprise if they change it regularly and/or don’t want to update the online list but was surprised that there was no further information profffered when given the menu (a tasting menu with dishes disclosed upfront) and wine list.
Do people really just order these without any care/thought about/interest in what they’re going to served?
Just curious about, and trying to calibrate a bit, my own level of geekiness when it comes to wines (and the fact that I almost certainly wouldn’t order them, unless I already knew the sommelier well, probably reflects).
They had two on offer: one at ~£150/head, the other at ~£250/head.
I’d checked the wine list beforehand and there was no further info about the wines themselves or the size of pours (which I quite like to see in order to keep an eye on, and pace, alcohol intake). Not a huge surprise if they change it regularly and/or don’t want to update the online list but was surprised that there was no further information profffered when given the menu (a tasting menu with dishes disclosed upfront) and wine list.
Do people really just order these without any care/thought about/interest in what they’re going to served?
Just curious about, and trying to calibrate a bit, my own level of geekiness when it comes to wines (and the fact that I almost certainly wouldn’t order them, unless I already knew the sommelier well, probably reflects).
Bit odd not to have it written down at least as a guide. It'd be normal to discuss wine choice with their sommelier regardless of the menu you're having, so perhaps they see that as being the customer's opportunity to find out what's available for the pairings? Lot of info to take on without something being written down though.
sherman said:
If theres wine pairings.
Theres a Sommelier.
Ask to speak to them.
I understand that would be an option but tbh when being hit with two pairings (probably 5-6 wines, various vintages and grapes) I don t really want to do that verbally. If for no other reason that it d have the potential to create a degree of awkwardness if I didn t like what was being offered. Theres a Sommelier.
Ask to speak to them.
My gut feeling is that most people wouldn t ask the Somm to run through the pairings, hence why I m intrigued about what people would actually do.
ATG said:
perhaps they see that as being the customer's opportunity to find out what's available for the pairings?
I did wonder if they were going to do a “please allow me to talk you though the pairings” when they handed the wine list over, but nope. It just seemed like they expected that people would just pick one based on price. Found it quite odd. Edited by LooneyTunes on Sunday 15th March 07:45
Yes I would. It's not that I don't care or I'm not interested, it's that if I'm paying a lot of money for dinner, I have to trust them on both food and drink. It's the overall experience that matters. I don't need or want to micromanage any part of that situation.
Also, having more information can sometimes be to my detriment. Suppose they give me a wine that I think pairs very nicely. I get the details and I find I can buy said wine for £8 at Majestic or wherever. Maybe that's good - I can subsequently buy some - but maybe it undermines the proposition and makes me instinctively feel ripped off, even though it worked well and I had a good time. And that's kind of on me - I would have spoilt my own enjoyment.
It's not just price, either. If you're armed with all the details, it might play into your biases - oh I don't like Riesling or whatever, I'm not going to enjoy this - whereas you'd probably be better off being open minded and just going with the flow. Maybe you're regularly dining in fancy establishments and want more control. I'm not and I want to experience whatever they put together for me.
Also, having more information can sometimes be to my detriment. Suppose they give me a wine that I think pairs very nicely. I get the details and I find I can buy said wine for £8 at Majestic or wherever. Maybe that's good - I can subsequently buy some - but maybe it undermines the proposition and makes me instinctively feel ripped off, even though it worked well and I had a good time. And that's kind of on me - I would have spoilt my own enjoyment.
It's not just price, either. If you're armed with all the details, it might play into your biases - oh I don't like Riesling or whatever, I'm not going to enjoy this - whereas you'd probably be better off being open minded and just going with the flow. Maybe you're regularly dining in fancy establishments and want more control. I'm not and I want to experience whatever they put together for me.
I have done both and these days tend to opt out of the wine pairings
. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
I was taken to a similar type of restaurant and enjoyed the wine pairing.
The meal (work related) was so good that I decided to take my wife and booked in about a month later.
That time I let the them know I was not a fan of 2 of the 5 wines they provided.
No problem, they changed them and served a wine better suited to my taste without any fuss or consternation to me.
Considering I was paying this time round, I didn't want to spoil the (expensive) meal ....
There was no awkwardness/ embarrassment. I am FAR from a wine connoisseur, but those that I was presented the first time round were not pleasant (to me).
Going forward, in a similar situation to you, I would have no hesitation in asking what they serve, and if not to my liking I would ask for an alternative.
The meal (work related) was so good that I decided to take my wife and booked in about a month later.
That time I let the them know I was not a fan of 2 of the 5 wines they provided.
No problem, they changed them and served a wine better suited to my taste without any fuss or consternation to me.
Considering I was paying this time round, I didn't want to spoil the (expensive) meal ....
There was no awkwardness/ embarrassment. I am FAR from a wine connoisseur, but those that I was presented the first time round were not pleasant (to me).
Going forward, in a similar situation to you, I would have no hesitation in asking what they serve, and if not to my liking I would ask for an alternative.
Interesting perspective from Trashbat, and one I can see.
I like pairings when they are done well: interesting wines that work with the food and that I might perhaps not have chosen myself.
Always avoid them when they seem like deliberate attempts to obfuscate value and/or include lesser vintages of top-flight wines (I saw a fairly extreme case of this at one well known restaurant offering a >£1000 flight).
The challenge I always have when it comes to wine in restaurants is that MrsLT is not usually a big drinker (often just a single cocktail or glass of champagne), albeit that can occasionally change if we have the right company and there’s some serious wine raiding going on, and I don’t drink enough to do justice to a bottle of red and a bottle of white. Sometimes go “by the glass” but the selections of those available can be pretty poor.
I like pairings when they are done well: interesting wines that work with the food and that I might perhaps not have chosen myself.
Always avoid them when they seem like deliberate attempts to obfuscate value and/or include lesser vintages of top-flight wines (I saw a fairly extreme case of this at one well known restaurant offering a >£1000 flight).
The challenge I always have when it comes to wine in restaurants is that MrsLT is not usually a big drinker (often just a single cocktail or glass of champagne), albeit that can occasionally change if we have the right company and there’s some serious wine raiding going on, and I don’t drink enough to do justice to a bottle of red and a bottle of white. Sometimes go “by the glass” but the selections of those available can be pretty poor.
RDMcG said:
I have done both and these days tend to opt out of the wine pairings
. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
Agreed, tasting menus have become tedious !. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
However, when at somewhere like Simpson's Edgbaston, the previous sommelier, Giacomo, had such enthusiasm for his wines that he would always run through the suggested paintings, and that was a treat.
trashbat said:
Yes I would. It's not that I don't care or I'm not interested, it's that if I'm paying a lot of money for dinner, I have to trust them on both food and drink. It's the overall experience that matters. I don't need or want to micromanage any part of that situation.
Also, having more information can sometimes be to my detriment. Suppose they give me a wine that I think pairs very nicely. I get the details and I find I can buy said wine for £8 at Majestic or wherever. Maybe that's good - I can subsequently buy some - but maybe it undermines the proposition and makes me instinctively feel ripped off, even though it worked well and I had a good time. And that's kind of on me - I would have spoilt my own enjoyment.
It's not just price, either. If you're armed with all the details, it might play into your biases - oh I don't like Riesling or whatever, I'm not going to enjoy this - whereas you'd probably be better off being open minded and just going with the flow. Maybe you're regularly dining in fancy establishments and want more control. I'm not and I want to experience whatever they put together for me.
Also, having more information can sometimes be to my detriment. Suppose they give me a wine that I think pairs very nicely. I get the details and I find I can buy said wine for £8 at Majestic or wherever. Maybe that's good - I can subsequently buy some - but maybe it undermines the proposition and makes me instinctively feel ripped off, even though it worked well and I had a good time. And that's kind of on me - I would have spoilt my own enjoyment.
It's not just price, either. If you're armed with all the details, it might play into your biases - oh I don't like Riesling or whatever, I'm not going to enjoy this - whereas you'd probably be better off being open minded and just going with the flow. Maybe you're regularly dining in fancy establishments and want more control. I'm not and I want to experience whatever they put together for me.
LooneyTunes said:
Do people really just order these without any care/thought about/interest in what they re going to served?
Yes. I am doing a tour of a port winery in Porto, with port tasting and five course meal with wine pairing but it doesn't go into detail what the wines are. https://www.grahams-port.com/files/news/attachs/32...
A friend has been before and said it was very good so im going with the flow.
Regbuser said:
RDMcG said:
I have done both and these days tend to opt out of the wine pairings
. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
Agreed, tasting menus have become tedious !. I have become uninterested in tasting menu places - when this first started to proliferate I did it for a while but now only in an exceptional place like the Ledbury would I do it again including the pairing . Otherwise à la carte.
However, when at somewhere like Simpson's Edgbaston, the previous sommelier, Giacomo, had such enthusiasm for his wines that he would always run through the suggested paintings, and that was a treat.
Anyway, back on topic I don’t drink as much these days so a full pairing isn’t needed. I like having a decent sommelier who is educative whilst also understanding that the enjoyment is subjective and on my side of the decision line.
That said we are fortunate to do this quite often and I can only recall 2 sniffy sommeliers. Lots of great ones including one I asked if he could stick to sherry and port pairings as they had a simply enormous range of each. He managed it ably.
Cotty said:
LooneyTunes said:
Do people really just order these without any care/thought about/interest in what they re going to served?
Yes. I am doing a tour of a port winery in Porto, with port tasting and five course meal with wine pairing but it doesn't go into detail what the wines are. https://www.grahams-port.com/files/news/attachs/32...
A friend has been before and said it was very good so im going with the flow.
Surprised by the wider dislike of tasting menus: I spend much of my week making decisions so quite enjoy someone else presenting a range of creations that I might not otherwise have chosen and should be the best they can produce. Done well they can be superb.
Done poorly, yes, a la carte would have been better.
I always ask the somm what wines are on the tasting as I know what I do / dont like... I can only think of one restaurant in the past say 5 years where I've opted for the tasting over choosing my own and that was more to do with keeping the cost down for the other guests we went out with.
If the wine I have chosen doesnt suit a course, I will often ask the somm to recommend a glass for that course.
If the wine I have chosen doesnt suit a course, I will often ask the somm to recommend a glass for that course.
Edited by Audis5b9 on Sunday 15th March 16:49
Gassing Station | Food, Drink & Restaurants | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff