What's the point of 8 or 9 string guitars?
Discussion
Rather than taking the NAMM thread off topic I thought I'd start a fresh one.
I just don't get 8 string guitars, never mind 9 strings. What's the point, surely with a 9 string even if your hands are massive you're just invading the space in the mix that should be used by the bassist? If that bottom string on a 9 is 14 semitones below normal bottom E, it will be 1 tone lower than the lowest note on a standard bass.
Then there's the ergonomics, I know the necks won't be that thick compared to a LP, but I don't have small hands and still wouldn't be able to reach across more than 3 frets.
So is it a daft idea or am I missing something obvious?
TC
I just don't get 8 string guitars, never mind 9 strings. What's the point, surely with a 9 string even if your hands are massive you're just invading the space in the mix that should be used by the bassist? If that bottom string on a 9 is 14 semitones below normal bottom E, it will be 1 tone lower than the lowest note on a standard bass.
Then there's the ergonomics, I know the necks won't be that thick compared to a LP, but I don't have small hands and still wouldn't be able to reach across more than 3 frets.
So is it a daft idea or am I missing something obvious?
TC
Mastodon2 said:
With regard to the "Why do you need extra strings?" argument above, the answer is simple; there are things you can play on a 7 or 8 string that you simply cannot play on a 6 string, because you will not have the range of notes (unless you use a very unusual 6 string tuning) nor will you have enough strings to play certain chords or sweeps.
You may listen to guitarists from an older generation and feel that they never thought they were running out of notes, but they played (or play) in what is now an old-fashioned genre. If you gave David Gilmour an 8 string, I'm sure he could do something amazing with it, in the context of his genre. Will we ever hear that? No, very unlikely, as Gilmour plays in a very conservative genre where, despite the open-mindedness of "prog", new ideas with regard to gear are not really accepted. Don't think though, that 7 strings are only for "new" music for young people, they were used in Jazz long before they were used in rock or metal.
Since this is a car website, I can put it in a fashion relating to cars that will make sense. Imagine you are driving your classic car, it has 4 gears and you might think that is enough for the car and that it's great. Porsche have just given the new 911 a 7 speed manual, the cutting edge of manual gearbox progress in road cars. If you could modernise your classic car with a 5 or even 6 speed box and well spaced ratios, it would probably greatly improve the flexibility of the drive, as you'd have more option available to you. However, you might also see adding those extra gears as being unnecessary, so choose to leave it with the old 4 speeder.
This is the same as strings on a guitar; the more you get, the greater range of notes you have and more options with how to play them based on the simple principle that a guitarist will always be limited by only being able to play one note per string at any single point in time, and will always be slowed by position shifts mid-run which could be eliminated if more notes were available in a single position on the neck.
I stick with 7s, I find 8 to be just a bit too much even for me, so I can see why some say "who needs extra strings? Not me!", but you have to accept that music has moved on and progress is happening without you - it's only natural.
You may listen to guitarists from an older generation and feel that they never thought they were running out of notes, but they played (or play) in what is now an old-fashioned genre. If you gave David Gilmour an 8 string, I'm sure he could do something amazing with it, in the context of his genre. Will we ever hear that? No, very unlikely, as Gilmour plays in a very conservative genre where, despite the open-mindedness of "prog", new ideas with regard to gear are not really accepted. Don't think though, that 7 strings are only for "new" music for young people, they were used in Jazz long before they were used in rock or metal.
Since this is a car website, I can put it in a fashion relating to cars that will make sense. Imagine you are driving your classic car, it has 4 gears and you might think that is enough for the car and that it's great. Porsche have just given the new 911 a 7 speed manual, the cutting edge of manual gearbox progress in road cars. If you could modernise your classic car with a 5 or even 6 speed box and well spaced ratios, it would probably greatly improve the flexibility of the drive, as you'd have more option available to you. However, you might also see adding those extra gears as being unnecessary, so choose to leave it with the old 4 speeder.
This is the same as strings on a guitar; the more you get, the greater range of notes you have and more options with how to play them based on the simple principle that a guitarist will always be limited by only being able to play one note per string at any single point in time, and will always be slowed by position shifts mid-run which could be eliminated if more notes were available in a single position on the neck.
I stick with 7s, I find 8 to be just a bit too much even for me, so I can see why some say "who needs extra strings? Not me!", but you have to accept that music has moved on and progress is happening without you - it's only natural.
More strings = more notes. Have you ever been improvising and ran out of fretboard?
Watch this, it'll really melt your brain,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf56jYDv2fc
Watch this, it'll really melt your brain,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf56jYDv2fc
I kind of see the classic car analogy, but it's not really the same is it? With the car you either put more gears (notes) into the same range, or you increase the top speed (pitch). With the guitars, as I put in my first post, you're dropping deeper and invading the space the bassist should be in.
I'm not sure it really frees up more notes in any position either, as the increasing width of the fingerboard must counteract that at least to an extent. My playing is based in classic rock and blues, so the frantic creativity maybe isn't there, but the 5 fret stretch for a 12 bar boogie in G is bad enough on a 6 string, can't see how anyone could manage even 4 on a 9 string unless they have stupendously long fingers. (Did once know a girl who was obsessed with guitarists' fingering abilities but that's heading way o/t).
I'm not sure it really frees up more notes in any position either, as the increasing width of the fingerboard must counteract that at least to an extent. My playing is based in classic rock and blues, so the frantic creativity maybe isn't there, but the 5 fret stretch for a 12 bar boogie in G is bad enough on a 6 string, can't see how anyone could manage even 4 on a 9 string unless they have stupendously long fingers. (Did once know a girl who was obsessed with guitarists' fingering abilities but that's heading way o/t).
ts feeding off attention have wanted something you know, extra!
Depends on the genre you play in I guess but it's not always about the number of notes. Say if you play heavy music and you want to stay in standard tuning rather than drop whatever it means you can have the heavier sound by having the low B (is that right as a drummer I'm not 100% sure). I'm told by the people I know who have 7/8 string guitars say it makes it more ergonomic than playing in the dropped tunings. Another thing that seems to make it easier is fanned fret boards, these seem more obvious on 6 string bass guitars though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsELKt_nquQ
Vai talks about is signature Universe guitars and the change from 6 to 7 strings, the benefits and the issues around it, which may be of interest.
More strings more range, more chords, more potential for ideas, the appeal's obvious isn't it?
With regards to how it feels to play, its like anything new, you get used to it and what was strange at first soon becomes second nature.
Vai talks about is signature Universe guitars and the change from 6 to 7 strings, the benefits and the issues around it, which may be of interest.
More strings more range, more chords, more potential for ideas, the appeal's obvious isn't it?
With regards to how it feels to play, its like anything new, you get used to it and what was strange at first soon becomes second nature.
Tom_C76 said:
I kind of see the classic car analogy, but it's not really the same is it? With the car you either put more gears (notes) into the same range, or you increase the top speed (pitch). With the guitars, as I put in my first post, you're dropping deeper and invading the space the bassist should be in.
I'm not sure it really frees up more notes in any position either, as the increasing width of the fingerboard must counteract that at least to an extent. My playing is based in classic rock and blues, so the frantic creativity maybe isn't there, but the 5 fret stretch for a 12 bar boogie in G is bad enough on a 6 string, can't see how anyone could manage even 4 on a 9 string unless they have stupendously long fingers. (Did once know a girl who was obsessed with guitarists' fingering abilities but that's heading way o/t).
Your ability to play an 8 or 9 string is not dictated as much by your fingers as it is by the width of your palm. With proper technique, you don't need long fingers, anyone can play them. As for more notes in one position, that is unequivocally true - more strings, in one position means more notes. Whether or not this is useful to you, is something only you can decide. As for invading the space a bassist "should" be in, where does this old-fashioned thinking come from? Why does anyone one member of the band need an exclusive sonic space? The use of 8 and 9 strings is about removing the traditional limitations of the instrument, not all players will have the ability, or even the imagination to want or need that.I'm not sure it really frees up more notes in any position either, as the increasing width of the fingerboard must counteract that at least to an extent. My playing is based in classic rock and blues, so the frantic creativity maybe isn't there, but the 5 fret stretch for a 12 bar boogie in G is bad enough on a 6 string, can't see how anyone could manage even 4 on a 9 string unless they have stupendously long fingers. (Did once know a girl who was obsessed with guitarists' fingering abilities but that's heading way o/t).
And of course, it has to be balanced with what is comfortable and useful for the player. I've had an 8 string, I owned the first Ibanez production 8 string in the UK actually, but I found it to be too much of a compromise between scale length, string tension and what was achievable with my rig in terms of EQing. I'd like to really spend some time with a multiscale 8 string with fanned frets, I think that would answer the things I didn't like. I stick with 7 strings these days, it feels most natural to me and gives me the flexibility I need to play what I play. Your mileage may vary, I know some people who won't play anything other than 8s, and I know some people who won't play anything with more than 6 strings because they're convinced it's witchcraft.
Some people seem terrible concerned by this, but it's not like they're going to stop making 6 strings, nor does sticking to 6 make you any more or less of a musician - Shawn Lane ripped on 6 strings like I've never heard before or since, but you pick what is best for your needs.
This will doubtless sound rubbish, as I'm not a musician, but as a metal fan of some vintage, I've slowly been learning to appreciate a lot of the 8 and 9 string stuff. Was hostile to it at first, but there's a lot of good stuff out there once you get past the generic shouty nonsense. I've no idea how difficult (or otherwise) it is to play, but I like the fact it's expanding the amount of ways heavy music can be created, as it keeps the genre on its toes. One interesting thing I've found is it has definitely improved my ear for what's going on in more "traditional" metal. I find I notice far more in songs that I've been listening to for years.
Baryonyx said:
otolith said:
And thus, by induction, it is shown that we should all play harps.
Totally different instrument. Think more along the lines of a 12 key piano player asking an 88 key piano player why they have so many keys. 
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