Sound mixing.. Amp placement.
Discussion
We had our first proper gig this weekend. Over the last 4 years we have gone from busking with ukuleles to full on dad rock. I've loved rediscovering the guitar after 25 years off. We'll never been good but we did play to 400 people on Saturday and yes I was s
tting myself and yes we all made a lot of mistakes, but we kept on, no one in the crowd cared and we loved it and left them wanting more!
We do however have issues with sound.
We have drums, bass, mandolin*, violin*, melodeon*, and guitar* plus 3 vocals through the desk and pa. *same bloke, different things for different songs.
Main speakers in front of the stage on 5ft high stands, monitor facing us.
Rhythm and lead guitars through separate amps, behind us on chairs, pointed slightly inwards so we can hear each other (supposedly).
We had a friend mixing the desk and he got a pretty good mix for everything in the desk.
The issue was that as the guitar amps were behind us we both though they were loud ( to the point I could not hear anything else) yet neither of us we able to hear each other and the audience could hardly hear us at all over the main mix.
We have another gig in a few weeks in a similar outdoor environment, where do we put the guitar amps to sort it out?
Clearly we need to hear them, I don't really want to shove them through the desk as we are drowning in cables as it is.
Is there a simple answer?
D
tting myself and yes we all made a lot of mistakes, but we kept on, no one in the crowd cared and we loved it and left them wanting more!We do however have issues with sound.
We have drums, bass, mandolin*, violin*, melodeon*, and guitar* plus 3 vocals through the desk and pa. *same bloke, different things for different songs.
Main speakers in front of the stage on 5ft high stands, monitor facing us.
Rhythm and lead guitars through separate amps, behind us on chairs, pointed slightly inwards so we can hear each other (supposedly).
We had a friend mixing the desk and he got a pretty good mix for everything in the desk.
The issue was that as the guitar amps were behind us we both though they were loud ( to the point I could not hear anything else) yet neither of us we able to hear each other and the audience could hardly hear us at all over the main mix.
We have another gig in a few weeks in a similar outdoor environment, where do we put the guitar amps to sort it out?
Clearly we need to hear them, I don't really want to shove them through the desk as we are drowning in cables as it is.
Is there a simple answer?
D
In reality it sounds like you ned to run the guitar amps lower on stage which means you'll need to mic up the guitars so you can run them at whatever volume is need out front...
You can put the amps on the floor behind you, angled up like fender Twins do on the chrome legs, run them at whatever volume feels right on stage.
You can put the amps on the floor behind you, angled up like fender Twins do on the chrome legs, run them at whatever volume feels right on stage.
chevy-stu said:
In reality it sounds like you ned to run the guitar amps lower on stage which means you'll need to mic up the guitars so you can run them at whatever volume is need out front...
You can put the amps on the floor behind you, angled up like fender Twins do on the chrome legs, run them at whatever volume feels right on stage.
As above. Run the amps lower. and Actually use the monitors for monitoring, don't rely on the sound coming out of the guitar amps.You can put the amps on the floor behind you, angled up like fender Twins do on the chrome legs, run them at whatever volume feels right on stage.
- controversial*
rich83 said:
As above. Run the amps lower. and Actually use the monitors for monitoring, don't rely on the sound coming out of the guitar amps.
You are both talking sense, it just means I need to find more space on the desk and buy more mics which might be tricky. I take your point about DIing straight in but I really don't want to do that, I've got the amp and pedals working how I want I just need to make the volumes work.- controversial*
Any suggestions for lowish cost instrument mics?
Many thanks
D
Shure SM57 is the default answer for micing amps. There's a gadget advertised in the back of Guitarist called (I think) Tone Cone which hangs the mic from the cab or combo to avoid the need for more mic stands.
Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
Tom_C76 said:
Shure SM57 is the default answer for micing amps. There's a gadget advertised in the back of Guitarist called (I think) Tone Cone which hangs the mic from the cab or combo to avoid the need for more mic stands.
Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
This also makes a lot of sense (and I've just been reading about PG57's). I think we need to experiment with where we place the guitar amps, putting them further behind us and on the floor rather than at my ear level..Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
Are you sure that it is ok to disconnect a speaker and put a DI box in? I thought that I'd need a power soak in between?
Cheers
D
Problems always start with drums (mainly due to drugs 
)... fact is, everyone has to play to the level of the live sound of the drums on stage. Get the shed builder to use lighter sticks or stop hitting so hard... then everyone else can turn down. Everything then gets more manageable.
Worked time after time with me in about a billion+ gigs. Turn everything down on stage and let the desk and PA do the work.
)... fact is, everyone has to play to the level of the live sound of the drums on stage. Get the shed builder to use lighter sticks or stop hitting so hard... then everyone else can turn down. Everything then gets more manageable.Worked time after time with me in about a billion+ gigs. Turn everything down on stage and let the desk and PA do the work.
GetCarter said:
Problems always start with drums (mainly due to drugs )... fact is, everyone has to play to the level of the live sound of the drums on stage. Get the shed builder to use lighter sticks or stop hitting so hard... then everyone else can turn down. Everything then gets more manageable.
Worked time after time with me in about a billion+ gigs. Turn everything down on stage and let the desk and PA do the work.
I know this is right and believe me I've tried that.He's just does not seem to thing he's the one that drives the volume... Great drummer though.. Well apart from the noise! )... fact is, everyone has to play to the level of the live sound of the drums on stage. Get the shed builder to use lighter sticks or stop hitting so hard... then everyone else can turn down. Everything then gets more manageable.Worked time after time with me in about a billion+ gigs. Turn everything down on stage and let the desk and PA do the work.
I've threatened to make him drum on a cajon.
Playing drums with thinner/lighter sticks might make less noise, but it also feels different so he may not like that...a bit like a guitarist changing from a thin/thick plectrum (or visa versa).
If the guitar amps are valve then they may not like being disconnected from the speaker, though some cut the speaker if headphones are plugged in so this might be a work around. Amps that do that may already have a DI out anyway.
If the guitar amps are valve then they may not like being disconnected from the speaker, though some cut the speaker if headphones are plugged in so this might be a work around. Amps that do that may already have a DI out anyway.
Like others have said, mic the guitar cabs and let the PA do its job. If the speakers will take it I have sometimes run the kick and the snare through the PA as well to give front of house a little more balance.
Because of the effects guitars run we have only ever DI'd bass and keyboards/synths.
Because of the effects guitars run we have only ever DI'd bass and keyboards/synths.
Another tip or two to hear better.... (sorry if I've stated the bleedin obvious).
Try and get the different sounds (clean/distortion, ect) you use on your pedals all to a similar level.
Make sure your sounds aren't a scooped out sound (avoid more bottom and top than mid). Always try to find the amps sweet spot for low mid and high then adjust your tone from there.
The lead sound should just boost slightly in the mix usually with a bit of extra mid.
Once you sort that then use as little as volume as possible on stage. Cabs and combos can be very beamy, so as already mentioned positioning is important.
Bass sounds carry the energy of the music so fire a bit of that energy into your monitor mix it will also tighten up your playing and make it more enjoyable.
Monitors are essential and if the drummer is causing havoc with cymbals, get him to tone it down or stick him behind a drum screen. If the kit is mic'ed up use gates and compressors on the inserts of the desk.
Get your engineer to mix your monitor sound before he does front of house. Once you are happy on stage everything else falls into place.
Instruments on stage will bleed into vocal mics. Mic technique is very important for loud bands. Sing into the mic not a foot away from it.
and finally try playing with earplugs, musician friendly ones. You might just hear much better and save your hearing.
Less is more and always try and sort your sound problems at source first.
Try and get the different sounds (clean/distortion, ect) you use on your pedals all to a similar level.
Make sure your sounds aren't a scooped out sound (avoid more bottom and top than mid). Always try to find the amps sweet spot for low mid and high then adjust your tone from there.
The lead sound should just boost slightly in the mix usually with a bit of extra mid.
Once you sort that then use as little as volume as possible on stage. Cabs and combos can be very beamy, so as already mentioned positioning is important.
Bass sounds carry the energy of the music so fire a bit of that energy into your monitor mix it will also tighten up your playing and make it more enjoyable.
Monitors are essential and if the drummer is causing havoc with cymbals, get him to tone it down or stick him behind a drum screen. If the kit is mic'ed up use gates and compressors on the inserts of the desk.
Get your engineer to mix your monitor sound before he does front of house. Once you are happy on stage everything else falls into place.
Instruments on stage will bleed into vocal mics. Mic technique is very important for loud bands. Sing into the mic not a foot away from it.
and finally try playing with earplugs, musician friendly ones. You might just hear much better and save your hearing.
Less is more and always try and sort your sound problems at source first.
The drummer needs to learn dynamics and play properly. Lighter sticks will not help. All that happens is they break quicker, but levels are still pretty much the same.
I'm a drummer of 15 years+ and there's no way I'd be still in business if I hadn't learnt to play quietly. It's a skill most drummers forget to master
Certainly, as suggested, mic up your instruments. Let the PA do the work. If your onstage levels are low, it means you can run a better monitor mix. Resulting in you hearing things properly, without feedback.
Unless your gigs are in places where there are no stage monitors? If you are relying on amps and the onstage sound to hear yourself, then this will be your problem.
ETA - If you don't already. Try some decent ear-plugs. Seriously! It transforms playing on stage.
I'm a drummer of 15 years+ and there's no way I'd be still in business if I hadn't learnt to play quietly. It's a skill most drummers forget to master
Certainly, as suggested, mic up your instruments. Let the PA do the work. If your onstage levels are low, it means you can run a better monitor mix. Resulting in you hearing things properly, without feedback.
Unless your gigs are in places where there are no stage monitors? If you are relying on amps and the onstage sound to hear yourself, then this will be your problem.
ETA - If you don't already. Try some decent ear-plugs. Seriously! It transforms playing on stage.
Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Monday 23 June 18:28
Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Monday 23 June 18:36
davidd said:
Tom_C76 said:
Shure SM57 is the default answer for micing amps. There's a gadget advertised in the back of Guitarist called (I think) Tone Cone which hangs the mic from the cab or combo to avoid the need for more mic stands.
Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
This also makes a lot of sense (and I've just been reading about PG57's). I think we need to experiment with where we place the guitar amps, putting them further behind us and on the floor rather than at my ear level..Alternatively, if you can disconnect the amp speakers, get a DI Box shoved between the amp and speaker and run from there to the desk.
Personally, I play to the drummer as does the lead guitarist, rather than trying to concentrate on each other too much. Possibly helps that we rehearse at gig volume with Marshall half stacks.
Are you sure it's your amp you're hearing? As long as I stand back from it I can hear everything, if I stand too close I can't hear my own amp as the sound is directed at my waist and all I hear is the bass and other guitar.
Are you sure that it is ok to disconnect a speaker and put a DI box in? I thought that I'd need a power soak in between?
Cheers
D
Tom_C76 said:
The engineer for our next gig was talking about DI and mic on the guitars until we pointed out our Marshalls don't have DI out. He did agree that micing would sound better anyway, I think he just has too many channels to play with on the desk.
Ha ha yup its a well know fact if the sound tech has 16 chans to play with then the "law" states they all have to be used !!!!!! Chirpsean said:
Tom_C76 said:
The engineer for our next gig was talking about DI and mic on the guitars until we pointed out our Marshalls don't have DI out. He did agree that micing would sound better anyway, I think he just has too many channels to play with on the desk.
Ha ha yup its a well know fact if the sound tech has 16 chans to play with then the "law" states they all have to be used !!!!!! Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff