How does it take so many people to write one song?
Discussion
Just watching Kylie perform her new song on the Graham Norton Show. The OH commented that she doesn't write her own stuff, so I checked and it turns out that she did write this... along with four other people. Can anyone who knows how the music industry works explain how it takes five people to write one song? What do they all do?
I guess (and I'm obviously not in "the biz") that it's a bit of a "brainstorming" session, just like people writing scripts. Going back to the sixties and the songwriters from that time, they'd often work together on things just to get stuff "just right".
Also, sometimes (and I'm not accusing Kylie of anything) the artist has a songwriting credit just so they get a share of songwriting royalties - on the basis that the song writer(s) only get a shed-load of royalties because of the status of the person singing the song. Dolly Parton says that the only reason Elvis never did a version of one of her big hits ("Jolene", I think) was that his manager insisted on a songwriting credit, and she wasn't prepared to do that.
Also, sometimes (and I'm not accusing Kylie of anything) the artist has a songwriting credit just so they get a share of songwriting royalties - on the basis that the song writer(s) only get a shed-load of royalties because of the status of the person singing the song. Dolly Parton says that the only reason Elvis never did a version of one of her big hits ("Jolene", I think) was that his manager insisted on a songwriting credit, and she wasn't prepared to do that.
Some writers work as teams and have agreed to pool their efforts. The most famous, possibly, would be Lennon McCartney. Many, if not most, of their songs were the product of one of them - as long as the Beatles survived. They seemed to stay out of legal battles over writing royalties, unlike Holland Dozier Holland at Motown, who variously shared writing and production duties under the team name, until it all broke down under a storm of litigation.
There is also, of course, the famous case of Whiter Shade Of Pale, where Procul Harem’s organist Matthew Fisher decided as late as 2006 that he was due writing credit for coming up with the introductory solo, and the judge agreed with him to the extent of 40% !! Two years later this was reversed by appeal, and it was only in 2009 that the law lords reverted to the original decision.
It is a moot point at exactly where production arrangement and composition take separate paths. For instance Jean-Luc Ponty, the French jazz violinist, played for some time with Frank Zappa and his solos comprised important parts of Zappa’s recordings. Ponty thought this merited writing credits. Zappa didn’t and fired him on the spot.
In the bad old days, studio owners and managers insisted on putting their names in italics under the titles of songs recorded by their naiive charges, thus diluting the writing credits that they fairly deserved. If you look at many of Buddy Holly’s early records the songs are credited to Holly, Petty. Norman Petty ran the studio in Clovis where they were recorded but is not thought to have had any contribution to their composition. It must have made his retirement a lot more comfortable.
There is also, of course, the famous case of Whiter Shade Of Pale, where Procul Harem’s organist Matthew Fisher decided as late as 2006 that he was due writing credit for coming up with the introductory solo, and the judge agreed with him to the extent of 40% !! Two years later this was reversed by appeal, and it was only in 2009 that the law lords reverted to the original decision.
It is a moot point at exactly where production arrangement and composition take separate paths. For instance Jean-Luc Ponty, the French jazz violinist, played for some time with Frank Zappa and his solos comprised important parts of Zappa’s recordings. Ponty thought this merited writing credits. Zappa didn’t and fired him on the spot.
In the bad old days, studio owners and managers insisted on putting their names in italics under the titles of songs recorded by their naiive charges, thus diluting the writing credits that they fairly deserved. If you look at many of Buddy Holly’s early records the songs are credited to Holly, Petty. Norman Petty ran the studio in Clovis where they were recorded but is not thought to have had any contribution to their composition. It must have made his retirement a lot more comfortable.
There are several Lennon & McCartney songs which started out as individual pieces by each of them that were joined together, often as not in Macca’s music room upstairs in his St.Johns Wood Home when Lennon arrived before they went round to Abbey Road which was only a short walk away. A good example of this is ‘A Day In The Life’, where John’s ‘I read the news today oh boy’ was meant to be part of a ramble through daily life and Paul’s ‘woke up, fell out of bed’ section, which was meant to be a different song altogether, but it happened to fit in where John needed some input.
On the other hand, ‘Strawberry Fields Forever’ was entirely John’s, written in a rented villa in Spain while he was filming ‘How I Won The War’ with Dick Lester in October ‘66. He was feeling a bit homesick and wrote it on acoustic guitar, the first demos of which are on the Beatles Anthology. When they went back into the studio in November they started working it up into a very different sounding piece, with Paul’s intro on the mellotron setting the tone beautifully. They worked on it for several weeks but John wasn’t sure whether he preferred the lighter or heavier versions they’d recorded, so he asked George Martin if he could join the beginning of one with the bulk of the other. The problem was they were recorded at slightly different tempos so Martin had to fiddle around with the tape speeds to match the two versions together, giving Lennon’s vocal a different tone, the ‘join’ is at about seventeen seconds in.
My aunt’s hubbie is a producer, mixer and composer and does this sort of thing these days with a few clicks of the mouse, but back in 1967 it was much more involved!
On the other hand, ‘Strawberry Fields Forever’ was entirely John’s, written in a rented villa in Spain while he was filming ‘How I Won The War’ with Dick Lester in October ‘66. He was feeling a bit homesick and wrote it on acoustic guitar, the first demos of which are on the Beatles Anthology. When they went back into the studio in November they started working it up into a very different sounding piece, with Paul’s intro on the mellotron setting the tone beautifully. They worked on it for several weeks but John wasn’t sure whether he preferred the lighter or heavier versions they’d recorded, so he asked George Martin if he could join the beginning of one with the bulk of the other. The problem was they were recorded at slightly different tempos so Martin had to fiddle around with the tape speeds to match the two versions together, giving Lennon’s vocal a different tone, the ‘join’ is at about seventeen seconds in.
My aunt’s hubbie is a producer, mixer and composer and does this sort of thing these days with a few clicks of the mouse, but back in 1967 it was much more involved!
Does make me wonder though - if a team write a song, how does this happen? Someone writes a few verses, someone else changes some of them, then someone else again writes a chorus, then one of the first people edits that, then someone else changes odd words and phrases throughout. Seems crazy that it takes so many people to write a song that may be very simple, the new Kylie song being a case in point.
P5BNij said:
My aunt’s hubbie is a producer, mixer and composer and does this sort of thing these days with a few clicks of the mouse...
I make electronic music on my laptop in my spare time. I wish it were as easy as seasoned producers using digital tools make it look!Droopsnoot, the Dolly Parton song that she would not sell to Elvis was I Will Always Love You.
Dolly never sells her songs as she says they are like her babies!
A smart decision on her part as later the Whitney Houston version earned her a fortune.
Willie Nelson sold Crazy for $30 as he was behind on his rent.
Songwriting credits are the source of thousands of disagreements, later on Lennon and McCartney took 40% each and gave 10% each to George and Ringo for their instrumental input.
Harrison was writing songs by then but was pushed out, of course, when the Beatles split he had two or three albums worth of material and received 100% making him very wealthy indeed.
Incidentally the early EMI Beatles songs were sold for buttons by Brian Epstein and the Fab Four missed out on millions, later on the Beatles early catalogue was owned by Michael Jackson whilst the Buddy Holly royalties belonged to Paul McCartney.
Dolly never sells her songs as she says they are like her babies!
A smart decision on her part as later the Whitney Houston version earned her a fortune.
Willie Nelson sold Crazy for $30 as he was behind on his rent.
Songwriting credits are the source of thousands of disagreements, later on Lennon and McCartney took 40% each and gave 10% each to George and Ringo for their instrumental input.
Harrison was writing songs by then but was pushed out, of course, when the Beatles split he had two or three albums worth of material and received 100% making him very wealthy indeed.
Incidentally the early EMI Beatles songs were sold for buttons by Brian Epstein and the Fab Four missed out on millions, later on the Beatles early catalogue was owned by Michael Jackson whilst the Buddy Holly royalties belonged to Paul McCartney.
MitchT said:
Does make me wonder though - if a team write a song, how does this happen? Someone writes a few verses, someone else changes some of them, then someone else again writes a chorus, then one of the first people edits that, then someone else changes odd words and phrases throughout. Seems crazy that it takes so many people to write a song that may be very simple, the new Kylie song being a case in point.
I know that The Stranglers always credited their songs to the whole band, no matter how much or how little input each individual had on each song, purely to avoid financial disputes later on in life. A lot of their songs had an idea from one band member which was then augmented by the others - I've heard some demos of songs prior to band involvement and they're radically different before the rest get involved and put their stamp on it. Some songs had no input at all from some band members - famously JJ Burnel doesn't play bass on the studio version of "Golden Brown", the bass line is played on the keyboard, but it's still credited to the group as a whole. It got a little more complex as the line-up changed, of course.As for the Kylie song, maybe a part of the process that you missed out is the chap who sits on the end making it sound simple. I've heard plenty of songs where the lyric is complicated or cringe-worthy, and even I can think of something that would be "better". Maybe it sounds so simple because someone has listened through and said "that's too fiddly".
kev b said:
Droopsnoot, the Dolly Parton song that she would not sell to Elvis was I Will Always Love You.
Thanks, this came up entirely separately in a Facebook post, and someone corrected me there too.Currently producing a music vid for a writing duo who've recently had a number 1 in the classical crossover charts. Do a lot of country stuff too.
One writes the lyrics and develops the melody. The other structures it into a song.
After the distributor and label, writers take the largest share of revenue. So people are sometimes credited as a writer even if they didn't write anything as a means to more fairy distribute the money.
One writes the lyrics and develops the melody. The other structures it into a song.
After the distributor and label, writers take the largest share of revenue. So people are sometimes credited as a writer even if they didn't write anything as a means to more fairy distribute the money.
Roofless Toothless said:
There is also, of course, the famous case of Whiter Shade Of Pale, where Procul Harem’s organist Matthew Fisher decided as late as 2006 that he was due writing credit for coming up with the introductory solo, and the judge agreed with him to the extent of 40% !! Two years later this was reversed by appeal, and it was only in 2009 that the law lords reverted to the original decision.
Radio 2 had an interview/feature on Gary Brooker a while back; he referred to it obliquely, but he's obviously bitter about it.MitchT said:
Does make me wonder though - if a team write a song, how does this happen? Someone writes a few verses, someone else changes some of them, then someone else again writes a chorus, then one of the first people edits that, then someone else changes odd words and phrases throughout. Seems crazy that it takes so many people to write a song that may be very simple, the new Kylie song being a case in point.
Like anything creative, the process can be profoundly improved through collaboration.The two guys I mentioned in my other post are also mates. I'll be with one in a pub shooting the breeze and he'll suddenly whip out a little book and scribble something down mid-chat. Something I say will have triggered - in his head - a line that he thinks might work in a song. I'll go and get another round in and by the time I'm back, he's written the whole song.
30% of it won't work. I might throw in some suggestions on syntax.
He'll take what he's got to his writing partner - a highly accomplished pianist / keyboard player and over the course of a day, they'll work out the melody,, chords, etc.
They work with a bass player and drummer a lot and if they feel the song needs a certain beat, they'll pull one of them in on the process.
They'll eventually get something that's good. As they go through this they begin to think of who is going to sing it. The singer will come in and record it - a process that often reveals that some parts of the song need further adjustment because the voice or style doesn't quite fit.
More fettling and you eventually get a marketable song. A process that's involved the writers, bass/drummer, singer, producer and even me...even though I can't tell a Quaver from a Whatsit!
I seem to recall Glenn Tillbrook and Chris Difford wrote 99% of Squeeze' catalogue of music.
Tillbrook wrote the melodies and Difford the lyrics
Then you get prolific song writers like Ryan Tedder who has written songs for lots of people including Beyonce amongst them - i'd have to look up exactly who - besides his own group One Republic. Not sure its sole writing credit but he is involved in quite a lot of well known stuff
Tillbrook wrote the melodies and Difford the lyrics
Then you get prolific song writers like Ryan Tedder who has written songs for lots of people including Beyonce amongst them - i'd have to look up exactly who - besides his own group One Republic. Not sure its sole writing credit but he is involved in quite a lot of well known stuff
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