Can you separate the 'man' from the music?
Discussion
As the title says - can you separate the artist from the music?
For example:
Lost Prophets guy (paedophilia)
Gary Glitter
Michael Jackson (though somehow he seems to have a 'free pass')
Iced Earth guy (convicted of storming the Capitol)
A lot of 70s pop/rock stars
And so on and on. The music is (taste dependent) great but the people behind it are (at best) questionable straight through to vile/evil.
For example GG has some great foot-tapping tunes (curiously heard one being played in a bar in Iceland 2/3 years ago). At what point is it ok to 'support' criminals by drug taking (many rock/pop/rap acts) and we say "...but the music is great..."
For example:
Lost Prophets guy (paedophilia)
Gary Glitter
Michael Jackson (though somehow he seems to have a 'free pass')
Iced Earth guy (convicted of storming the Capitol)
A lot of 70s pop/rock stars
And so on and on. The music is (taste dependent) great but the people behind it are (at best) questionable straight through to vile/evil.
For example GG has some great foot-tapping tunes (curiously heard one being played in a bar in Iceland 2/3 years ago). At what point is it ok to 'support' criminals by drug taking (many rock/pop/rap acts) and we say "...but the music is great..."
Not something I’ve ever really thought about to be honest, but a really interesting point! Looking back, I’ve sort of just stopped listening to the real ‘wronguns’ (Glitter, Lost Prophets etc) without thinking about it, but definitely not the same for those who are, erm, living the rock and roll lifestyle, shall we say! Never listened to Jackson anyway, his voice just grates on me!
I guess if I had to summarise it from my own personal POV, if their actions are only affecting them, live and let live. When it comes to them abusing their position to abuse other people, that’s a different story. But it’s definitely a subconscious thing (for me, at least).
I guess if I had to summarise it from my own personal POV, if their actions are only affecting them, live and let live. When it comes to them abusing their position to abuse other people, that’s a different story. But it’s definitely a subconscious thing (for me, at least).
No, I can't or won't personally, though I think we will all have our personal lines with this sort of thing. Even if I might enjoy the music, even if I'm listening via Spotify, if there's a reason to feel suspect about anyone, I'm skipping it - there is plenty more music to hear where X isn't a factor.
I'm a black metal fan and you certainly should be aware of what you're listening to - it has a far right/racist element unfortunately (aka NS, National Socialist Black Metal), there are known labels I avoid explicitly. It isn't actually a label that's had bands with overt lyrics etc. but I don't think you need to ask any questions about "No Colours Records".... There are bands I will buy music by, who were only on that label in their earliest years, as I have no other reason to be suspect of them (quite a few notable records of the 90s in fact). Finnish black metal has a particular NSBM problem hence I'm very wary about most of it. The genre does has its fair share of general a
holes and/or bands with links to known NSBM bands - Nokturnal Mortum, Deathspell Omega and Peste Noir, to name a few are bands I now won't go near.
It has always been known for satanism, anti-religious (specifically anti-christian) lyrics - I don't really care about that side of it. I'm no fan of organised religion, but the only reason I love black metal is the music. In its history going back to the peak in the mid 90s, the satanic schtick is much like other metal going back to the early 80s, just for shock value - most were not serious about whatever they sung (though in BM you must act like you are really serious, otherwise you're not 'kvlt'!!!) In reality many lyrics are about nature, maybe misanthropy, glorification of pagan times. Of course there could be a fine line with that last subject - I try to avoid anything with racist lyrics though it isn't always easy to know.
I'm not sure exactly where I stand on some bands/artists, it is something I work out as I come across them.
I don't intend to listen to a second of anything by Burzum/Varg Vikernes, being a pseudo-intellectual moron and racist. I like Emperor and will listen to them, but I'm not really sure I like what the band's leader has said about the fact the drummer on some of their early albums, is playing with them live again, since leaving prison for murdering a gay person in the 90s. The members of one of my favorite bands, Hades, burnt down some stave churches back in the 90s and I believe have no remorse today - I hate that merely as destruction of beautiful historic buildings, but why should it stop me supporting them?
I'm a black metal fan and you certainly should be aware of what you're listening to - it has a far right/racist element unfortunately (aka NS, National Socialist Black Metal), there are known labels I avoid explicitly. It isn't actually a label that's had bands with overt lyrics etc. but I don't think you need to ask any questions about "No Colours Records".... There are bands I will buy music by, who were only on that label in their earliest years, as I have no other reason to be suspect of them (quite a few notable records of the 90s in fact). Finnish black metal has a particular NSBM problem hence I'm very wary about most of it. The genre does has its fair share of general a
holes and/or bands with links to known NSBM bands - Nokturnal Mortum, Deathspell Omega and Peste Noir, to name a few are bands I now won't go near.It has always been known for satanism, anti-religious (specifically anti-christian) lyrics - I don't really care about that side of it. I'm no fan of organised religion, but the only reason I love black metal is the music. In its history going back to the peak in the mid 90s, the satanic schtick is much like other metal going back to the early 80s, just for shock value - most were not serious about whatever they sung (though in BM you must act like you are really serious, otherwise you're not 'kvlt'!!!) In reality many lyrics are about nature, maybe misanthropy, glorification of pagan times. Of course there could be a fine line with that last subject - I try to avoid anything with racist lyrics though it isn't always easy to know.
I'm not sure exactly where I stand on some bands/artists, it is something I work out as I come across them.
I don't intend to listen to a second of anything by Burzum/Varg Vikernes, being a pseudo-intellectual moron and racist. I like Emperor and will listen to them, but I'm not really sure I like what the band's leader has said about the fact the drummer on some of their early albums, is playing with them live again, since leaving prison for murdering a gay person in the 90s. The members of one of my favorite bands, Hades, burnt down some stave churches back in the 90s and I believe have no remorse today - I hate that merely as destruction of beautiful historic buildings, but why should it stop me supporting them?
Edited by Winterway on Wednesday 25th August 21:24
Prior to covid I was a DJ (of the Mobile / Party variety). If I hadn't played a Jackson track by 10pm one would be asked for regardless of the audience, young or old. This may be because nothing was absolutely proven or it may be because Billie Jean is an awesome party song. Personally, I think the latter.
Gary Glitter was different. That all was proven and he was British. But as a test, I did play My Gang a few times to gauge the reaction which was nothing other than to fill the dance floor. Again, this wasn't ironic humour - just drunk people dancing to a good tune.
I was running a radio station when the Glitter story broke and also when the whole Jackson thing took hold. The board made the unanimous decision to remove all Gary Glitter songs from the library and ban the playing of anything he'd done. But we never even discussed Jackson. Looking back, this was quite odd thinking about it.
Gary Glitter was different. That all was proven and he was British. But as a test, I did play My Gang a few times to gauge the reaction which was nothing other than to fill the dance floor. Again, this wasn't ironic humour - just drunk people dancing to a good tune.
I was running a radio station when the Glitter story broke and also when the whole Jackson thing took hold. The board made the unanimous decision to remove all Gary Glitter songs from the library and ban the playing of anything he'd done. But we never even discussed Jackson. Looking back, this was quite odd thinking about it.
I think in a private setting I.e. at home or via headphones you can do what you like. Being a DJ or with a radio station you need to adhere to your code of conduct.
I liked both Lost Prophets (and 100 Reasons) when they broke but haven’t reached for them recently.
When I hear Morisseys voice I admit that his latter day sneering comes through. He did utter the lyric “England for the English” but I don’t know if the context was 1st or 3rd person and if it was a statement of belief or stereotyping the people who would chant that?
There are a LOT of lyrics which would be challenging in 2021, I’ll leave you with one which struck me recently:
“Black man’s got a lot of problems, but they don’t mind throwing a brick. White people go to school, where they teach you to be thick”
I could see a lot of ungenerous woke types tearing that limb from limb without appreciating Joe’s intent which I think wasn’t malicious. Thoughts?
I liked both Lost Prophets (and 100 Reasons) when they broke but haven’t reached for them recently.
When I hear Morisseys voice I admit that his latter day sneering comes through. He did utter the lyric “England for the English” but I don’t know if the context was 1st or 3rd person and if it was a statement of belief or stereotyping the people who would chant that?
There are a LOT of lyrics which would be challenging in 2021, I’ll leave you with one which struck me recently:
“Black man’s got a lot of problems, but they don’t mind throwing a brick. White people go to school, where they teach you to be thick”
I could see a lot of ungenerous woke types tearing that limb from limb without appreciating Joe’s intent which I think wasn’t malicious. Thoughts?
I've got some sort of twisted justification with Michael Jackson as he's now dead and could in no way profit from me listening to his songs. I have no issue whatsoever with his family profiting. His earlier music was just legendary.
I do find myself humming along when Gary Glitter or Lost Prophets come on the radio (mainly when driving through Europe as they're rarely played on UK radio) but wouldn't wish to line their pockets by streaming their songs.
I do find myself humming along when Gary Glitter or Lost Prophets come on the radio (mainly when driving through Europe as they're rarely played on UK radio) but wouldn't wish to line their pockets by streaming their songs.
The student nurses at work loved 'Another rock n roll Christmas' by Gary Glitter. Obviously, it's never played on the radio so they were asking who sang it. When I told them, suddenly the song was 'crap'.
I have it on my MP3 player, along with some of Michael Jacksons, Rolf Harris and one by Jonathan King.
I have it on my MP3 player, along with some of Michael Jacksons, Rolf Harris and one by Jonathan King.
Well... A band I quite like and saw earlier this month was in the news tonight over a leaked racist group chat. They had fired their singer and then the leak was made, as well as other allegations of a member being abusive to their partner.
https://metalinsider.net/news/vincent-jackson-jone...
Not sure how I'll feel about them going forwards, we'll see.
https://metalinsider.net/news/vincent-jackson-jone...
Not sure how I'll feel about them going forwards, we'll see.
ExcitableBoy said:
Van Dessel said:
and 100 Reasons
What was the Hundred Reasons issue? I still listen to their first album...Edited by ExcitableBoy on Friday 27th August 00:29
(Btw - 2022 reunion tour announced recently, got tix for Southampton guildhall, can’t wait!!)
Jonboy_t said:
ExcitableBoy said:
Van Dessel said:
and 100 Reasons
What was the Hundred Reasons issue? I still listen to their first album...Edited by ExcitableBoy on Friday 27th August 00:29
(Btw - 2022 reunion tour announced recently, got tix for Southampton guildhall, can’t wait!!)
And re: White Riot you got quite excited didn't ya? That's my point exactly, culture warriors take anything and everything out of all context when they set their sights on murdering someone's historical record. Happens in all industries. Recently the Emmies or Grammies went through about 16 hosts bc they all stepped aside due to old tweets or material (might have been Chris Rock or Chris Tucker, cant remember)
Plus no one would EVER write white riot in 2021. Not enough freedom to.
Plus i half expect one day we could easily wake up to a "concerned interest group" taking on a classic artist like the Clash or Prince and forensically combing their lyrics for anything that doesn't measure up to 2021 scruples. I'm not talking about obvious cases like child exploitation but greyer things like the lyrics to Land of Hope and Glory or Rule Britannua etc. You get the idea...
Lost Prophets?
I handed them money before the story broke. Albums, gig tickets, t-shirts, etc. I still have the albums and even the t-shirts. Wouldn't wear the t-shirts now obviously (except maybe to a 'cathedral of woke' just to see the reaction). But my iPod is stuck in about 2008, when my old PC fried and took my iTunes account with it. So occasionally Lost Prophets come up on shuffle or an old playlist. Initially, post his conviction, I'd ffwd through them. Now, though, I listen to a track when it comes on.
I'm angry at him for what he did. But it's not as if he can make any more money out of recordings I've already bought. And I'm angry at him for what he did to his band mates. No hope of royalties from any of their back-catalog now. And 'No Devotion' didn't really make it in the same way as the Prophets, despite the former members of the Prophets who formed the core of the new band. So yes, in this case I think I can just about separate the man from the music.
Solo artists, though (Glitter, and Rolf Harris) I can't because there are no other band members to deflect from the involvement of the paedo/perv. And Michael Jackson? The way he has escaped the fate of others is odd. In fact I find it far more cringeworthy to hear a MJ track or see (yet another) video on a retro music channel than I do when my iPod chucks out another Prophets tune. No danger of any Michael Jackson sneaking out of my music collection though. I never really rated him as a solo artist. Plenty of Jacksons/Jackson Five in my Motown section though. Twiddlee-diddly-dee...
I handed them money before the story broke. Albums, gig tickets, t-shirts, etc. I still have the albums and even the t-shirts. Wouldn't wear the t-shirts now obviously (except maybe to a 'cathedral of woke' just to see the reaction). But my iPod is stuck in about 2008, when my old PC fried and took my iTunes account with it. So occasionally Lost Prophets come up on shuffle or an old playlist. Initially, post his conviction, I'd ffwd through them. Now, though, I listen to a track when it comes on.
I'm angry at him for what he did. But it's not as if he can make any more money out of recordings I've already bought. And I'm angry at him for what he did to his band mates. No hope of royalties from any of their back-catalog now. And 'No Devotion' didn't really make it in the same way as the Prophets, despite the former members of the Prophets who formed the core of the new band. So yes, in this case I think I can just about separate the man from the music.
Solo artists, though (Glitter, and Rolf Harris) I can't because there are no other band members to deflect from the involvement of the paedo/perv. And Michael Jackson? The way he has escaped the fate of others is odd. In fact I find it far more cringeworthy to hear a MJ track or see (yet another) video on a retro music channel than I do when my iPod chucks out another Prophets tune. No danger of any Michael Jackson sneaking out of my music collection though. I never really rated him as a solo artist. Plenty of Jacksons/Jackson Five in my Motown section though. Twiddlee-diddly-dee...
toasty said:
I hear some people still won’t listen to Eric Clapton’s music based on some racist comments he made back in the 70s.
I've got everything by Clapton I ever want to hear (Bluesbreakers/Cream/Blind Faith/Derek & The Dominoes/Edge of Darkness) anyway, so I'm not going to be swelling his bank account any further any time soon. I did notice a film of him in concert on Sky Arts, with about half his backing band comprising black artists who presumably were happy to be there. Go figure.Van Morrison has gone off the rails recently by ranting about COVID measures, as has Clapton come to think of it.
I've got a couple of Kate Bush albums with Rolf Harris featured on them; they're not going in the bin either.
toasty said:
I've got some sort of twisted justification with Michael Jackson as he's now dead and could in no way profit from me listening to his songs. I have no issue whatsoever with his family profiting. His earlier music was just legendary.
Also wasn't actually found guilty of anything, was he?Bacon Is Proof said:
toasty said:
I've got some sort of twisted justification with Michael Jackson as he's now dead and could in no way profit from me listening to his songs. I have no issue whatsoever with his family profiting. His earlier music was just legendary.
Also wasn't actually found guilty of anything, was he?I see Afrika Bambaataa & The Zulu Nation are the latest to be added to the list of questionable types - rumours and accusations have circulated for years, but now an action has been filed.
https://www.nme.com/news/music/afrika-bambaataa-su...
https://www.nme.com/news/music/afrika-bambaataa-su...
hepy said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
toasty said:
I've got some sort of twisted justification with Michael Jackson as he's now dead and could in no way profit from me listening to his songs. I have no issue whatsoever with his family profiting. His earlier music was just legendary.
Also wasn't actually found guilty of anything, was he?Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff