Last night of the Proms
Discussion
I just watched it and enjoyed it again . What I don't get is why it's such a white audience ? I hope this thread can remain positive, good mannered and constructive. It's a genuine question from a middle aged white Englishman. Why is the audience nearly all white , infact entirely as far as I could see . I actually went to a steam rally and a reinactment of a jousting contest this summer and thought the same . It's not representative of our population or my last workplace . What is it about these events that purely attracts white people?
For the sake of clarity I am not hunting for any complex answer here or any form of prejudice ,it just seems unusual now to see solely white faces .
For the sake of clarity I am not hunting for any complex answer here or any form of prejudice ,it just seems unusual now to see solely white faces .
Edited by cliffords on Saturday 9th September 22:52
AMAWE (noun: pronounced Am-ow-wee); Race declines in numbers at rapid rate due to spread of Woke wkoiseminsebalis
Music written by colonialist majority race played for colonialist majority race. Stereotype attends.
See for example Jesus and Mary Chain Concerts. Generally attended by JAMC fans, not too many vegan yoghurt knitters.
Stereotypes exist for a reason is a very good way of assessing the world.
Music written by colonialist majority race played for colonialist majority race. Stereotype attends.
See for example Jesus and Mary Chain Concerts. Generally attended by JAMC fans, not too many vegan yoghurt knitters.
Stereotypes exist for a reason is a very good way of assessing the world.
t.Because
- Classical music audiences are overwhelmingly older, richer, and whiter than the average across the UK
- The general requirement for a ticket to the Last Night of the Proms is that you attend at least 6 other Proms concerts. (And the earlier you attend those 6 in the season, the more likely you are to secure a Last Night ticket)
- Classical music audiences are overwhelmingly older, richer, and whiter than the average across the UK
- The general requirement for a ticket to the Last Night of the Proms is that you attend at least 6 other Proms concerts. (And the earlier you attend those 6 in the season, the more likely you are to secure a Last Night ticket)
brickwall said:
Because
- Classical music audiences are overwhelmingly older, richer, and whiter than the average across the UK
- The general requirement for a ticket to the Last Night of the Proms is that you attend at least 6 other Proms concerts. (And the earlier you attend those 6 in the season, the more likely you are to secure a Last Night ticket)
I think this covers it - even if the Proms are the one of the cheapest events you can go to in London (not the last night but the rest of the season) the audiences are older, richer and whiter. I must say that the audiences for the other proms are more mixed, but not 2023 multicultural London mixed.- Classical music audiences are overwhelmingly older, richer, and whiter than the average across the UK
- The general requirement for a ticket to the Last Night of the Proms is that you attend at least 6 other Proms concerts. (And the earlier you attend those 6 in the season, the more likely you are to secure a Last Night ticket)
Add in the need to buy tickets for other proms means it's mostly people in London or can get home from London at 10pm who you will see at the last night.
cliffords said:
I just watched it and enjoyed it again . What I don't get is why it's such a white audience ? I hope this thread can remain positive, good mannered and constructive. It's a genuine question from a middle aged white Englishman. Why is the audience nearly all white , infact entirely as far as I could see . I actually went to a steam rally and a reinactment of a jousting contest this summer and thought the same . It's not representative of our population or my last workplace . What is it about these events that purely attracts white people?
For the sake of clarity I am not hunting for any complex answer here or any form of prejudice ,it just seems unusual now to see solely white faces .
I started reading this post thinking it was legit; then I got to the bit in bold. For the sake of clarity I am not hunting for any complex answer here or any form of prejudice ,it just seems unusual now to see solely white faces .
Edited by cliffords on Saturday 9th September 22:52
OP, I salute you, what a terrific wind up, you made me laugh out loud!
If you'd just added Morris Dancing you'd have hit the bullseye
I don't know if to accept the salute or be insulted . I will go for the first option and I am glad I made you laugh. The bit in bold is because I am a grandfather with a small boy to entertain, he loved both events , as did I.
It is a legitimate post , and I don't think any of the reasons posted work, they don't relate to skin colour , it's something else that makes it a white event .In terms of the age demographic seemed last night was quite spread . I still don't get it .
It is a legitimate post , and I don't think any of the reasons posted work, they don't relate to skin colour , it's something else that makes it a white event .In terms of the age demographic seemed last night was quite spread . I still don't get it .
I wonder if it's a bit of a mix of class wealth and culture?
If you watch Countryfile there are often episodes that highlight how black and asian people don't tend to go rambling.
Same arguments apply i.e. it's low cost and there's nothing to block or stop black or asian people buying a pair of walking boots and going exploring.
Not sure there's going to be one single "that's it!" factor though?
If you watch Countryfile there are often episodes that highlight how black and asian people don't tend to go rambling.
Same arguments apply i.e. it's low cost and there's nothing to block or stop black or asian people buying a pair of walking boots and going exploring.
Not sure there's going to be one single "that's it!" factor though?
Honestly, go to almost any classical music concert in London and you’ll think the same. Go to Glyndebourne and it’s not just mono-cultural, the average age must be >65 too.
Similarly look at the membership of the choirs and orchestras performing on the stage- they are overwhelmingly white (and ageing) as well.
Classical music in the UK is incredibly un-diverse. But in broader context that’s not surprising - many of the institutions in question are Victorian, and for at least 120 of their 150 year history they actively sought out members of their preferred social class. Diversifying their membership and audience base is a relatively new phenomenon of the last c20 years.
You can’t expect to undo 120+ years of institutional self-selection in 20 years.
Similarly look at the membership of the choirs and orchestras performing on the stage- they are overwhelmingly white (and ageing) as well.
Classical music in the UK is incredibly un-diverse. But in broader context that’s not surprising - many of the institutions in question are Victorian, and for at least 120 of their 150 year history they actively sought out members of their preferred social class. Diversifying their membership and audience base is a relatively new phenomenon of the last c20 years.
You can’t expect to undo 120+ years of institutional self-selection in 20 years.
markiii said:
Would you go to a rap concert and be surprised the majority of fans were young and black?
I don't think it's a relevant comparison . The Proms has very diverse and different music during the whole series and yet it appears the last night is a white event .In regards to rap music I would expect a multicultural mix , I did not see that last night.
I have never been to a rap concert.
I also reject the notion that the Last Night is less diverse an audience than the rest of the Proms season.
Every time I’ve been to the last night (which to be fair is only 3 times) it’s been more diverse - because you have a larger number of international classical music aficionados who want to get to that event as a “once in a lifetime” experience.
I’ve probably been to 75 other Proms over the years, and the audiences vary enormously- you’ll have more children at the concerts labelled “family friendly”, younger audiences at the concerts with a more “popular” programme. And a mid-week organ recital of pure Bach…well that’ll be the real hardcore fans.
Every time I’ve been to the last night (which to be fair is only 3 times) it’s been more diverse - because you have a larger number of international classical music aficionados who want to get to that event as a “once in a lifetime” experience.
I’ve probably been to 75 other Proms over the years, and the audiences vary enormously- you’ll have more children at the concerts labelled “family friendly”, younger audiences at the concerts with a more “popular” programme. And a mid-week organ recital of pure Bach…well that’ll be the real hardcore fans.
I asked a friend about rambling, walking, hiking etc. and he said "Not for me because of hygiene - dogs and toilets". I've asked him to have a quick chat with the Muslim community (all of them, they're probably on Facebook) to see if this is a thing and come back to me with a proper answer.
Its definitely cultural.
Make a list of the top classical composers and where they are from.
Go to any ethnic music festival and you wouldn’t be massively surprised to see a disproportionate representation of people from that ethnicity.
OP, go to something in this list. You will be in the minority, if there are any people from your demographic at all.
https://allevents.in/london/bhangra
Make a list of the top classical composers and where they are from.
Go to any ethnic music festival and you wouldn’t be massively surprised to see a disproportionate representation of people from that ethnicity.
OP, go to something in this list. You will be in the minority, if there are any people from your demographic at all.
https://allevents.in/london/bhangra
Edited by wyson on Sunday 10th September 22:40
wyson said:
Its definitely cultural.
Make a list of the top classical composers and where they are from.
Go to any ethnic music festival and you wouldn’t be massively surprised to see a disproportionate representation of people from that ethnicity.
OP, go to something in this list. You will be in the minority, if there are any people from your demographic at all.
https://allevents.in/london/bhangra
It makes no sense though. My favourite music . Buddy Guy , Albert Colin's , Robert Cray , BB King, etc etc , all black Americans. Me middle aged English white man . I actually saw BB King at the Royal Albert Hall about 10 years ago now and even then the audience was diverse. But in fact mainly people who looked like me .Make a list of the top classical composers and where they are from.
Go to any ethnic music festival and you wouldn’t be massively surprised to see a disproportionate representation of people from that ethnicity.
OP, go to something in this list. You will be in the minority, if there are any people from your demographic at all.
https://allevents.in/london/bhangra
Edited by wyson on Sunday 10th September 22:40
I will stop over thinking it now .
Yes, I remember listening to a BBC Radio 3 program about how this sort of music became acceptable to white audiences. It was always through white musicians who appropriated it. In the early days it was really ethnic. The same with rap, that has a lot of cross cultural acceptance now. In the early days, it was almost exclusively considered black American music.
Could well be writing the same about Bhangra music in 30 years time. That hasn’t crossed over yet.
Could well be writing the same about Bhangra music in 30 years time. That hasn’t crossed over yet.
Edited by wyson on Sunday 10th September 23:51
cliffords said:
It makes no sense though. My favourite music . Buddy Guy , Albert Colin's , Robert Cray , BB King, etc etc , all black Americans. Me middle aged English white man . I actually saw BB King at the Royal Albert Hall about 10 years ago now and even then the audience was diverse. But in fact mainly people who looked like me .
I will stop over thinking it now .
Why aren’t you into African Royal Court music?I will stop over thinking it now .
Here is some from Uganda:
https://youtu.be/lC8lOug6ltk?si=tkKo8yRXeEI11GMV
Could be any nation really. I’m not an expert, just cast a curious ear on BBC Radio World Music programs now and again. There is TONS out there that I’m not culturally attuned to, that sound very OMG, what is that to my ear. A lot of it lies outside Western musical scales and sounds very foreign indeed.
Jazz and blues are very much part of Western culture now. Its not a stretch to reach back from pop / rock that has been heavily influenced by it.
Not so African Royal Court music. I think music like this does distantly inform Black American musical traditions through the slave trade, but are far enough removed to be notably ‘foreign’ now.
Edited by wyson on Monday 11th September 01:09
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