Helmet Standards (Again!)

[splitpin]

Morning All

I realise that there have been a number of threads on this, so apologies, but I'm still not clear/would like absolute clarity.

Want/need to buy a new helmet (to be used with Hans) for National B Circuit Racing:

Now some of the helmets under consideration seem to have not completely matching 'standards compliance': for example, the Bell RS3 Pro is Snell SA2010 & FIA 8858-2010 Approved, whereas the Simpson Bandit (and a number of pricey Arais) is 'just' Snell SA2010 Approved i.e. by fact/implication, not FIA 8858-2010 Tested/Approved. From my reading of The Blue Book, either should be/will be to the Scrut's satisfaction? Correct?

Now as far as I can make out, most if not all of the Snell SA2010 helmets (whether or not they are also FIA 8858-2010 tested/approved) either have Hans Posts actually fitted or are pre-drilled/female inserted ready to be fitted with them. As I understand it, whereas the old FIA 8858-2002 Hans Posts could not be retro-fitted by just anyone, on a Snell SA2010 Helmet, they (the FIA 8858-2010 type posts) can be. Correct?

Now as far as I can see, all the aftermarket posts on offer (Scroth from such as Demon Tweeks etc) have FIA 8858-2010 screen printed onto them; so 'me' retro-fitting them to an FIA 8858-2010 Approved helmet seems no problem at all, but what about if I want to retro-fit them to a helmet that is Snell SA2010 Approved but is not FIA 8858-2010 tested/approved? Obviously, one can, but will it be acceptable to the Scrut?

I also note that the latest Hans have FIA 8858-2010 Approved tethers; is there any problem with using that Hans with a helmet fitted with FIA 8858-2002 Posts?

Obviously, I'm worried about falling foul of some Scrut's interpretation of what 'mixed approvals' means!

Thanks

[bucksmanuk]

What level are you competing at?

[spyderman8]

Personally - to avoid a potential minefield - I'd just buy a helmet with the posts already fitted.

[splitpin]

spyderman8 said:

Personally - to avoid a potential minefield - I'd just buy a helmet with the posts already fitted.

Know what you mean/where you're coming from, but there are some Snell SA2010 (but not FIA 8858-2010) approved helmets that do come factory pre-drilled and female inserted i.e. Hans etc ready which can't actually be bought with the posts fitted; and frankly, that shouldn't matter/be a problem, as the whole point of the latest helmet standards is that the Customer can fit various head restraint systems (Hans is just one of them, albeit the most widely used) as the helmet has been factory prepared ready to receive them.

It just so happens that one of these Snell SA2010/non FIA 8858-2010 fits by far the best, so why shouldn't one be able to wear it if it complies with The Blue Book? And that's the question really; if a Snell SA2010/non FIA 8858-2010 helmet is fitted with FIA 8858-2010 posts, does it comply?

It seems to me that it is a minefield, but it shouldn't be. It's way more complex than it needs/should be. OK, Snell is an American (not for profit) organisation/standard, whereas the FIA (therefore the MSA) is a European (also not for profit ) organisation/standard and we're European, but let's not forget who invented Hans; the Americans.

As an aside, it pi55es me off that the likes of Ding Dong want an e/o of something like £60 for bolting two Hans posts on to those inserts; they are taking the mickey; bet they pay about a fiver a pair for them, if that. I reckon there's a massive profit margin on motorsport helmets (a high proportion are made in China for next to nothing) and then they go and rub it in by wanting an extra £60 for a couple of posts.

[spyderman8]

I got into a discussion with GPR at Silverstone last year about retro-fitting posts and the guy thought that even if the helmet is pre-drilled, it has to go back to the makers to have the posts fitted - I guess to check they've been fitted properly.

My own Bell is SA2000 so I'm going to have to replace it soon regardless. I will buy one with posts pre-fitted, even if I never buy a HANS.

[splitpin]

spyderman8 said:

I got into a discussion with GPR at Silverstone last year about retro-fitting posts and the guy thought that even if the helmet is pre-drilled, it has to go back to the makers to have the posts fitted - I guess to check they've been fitted properly.

If he/she was talking about a Snell and/or FIA 2010 helmet, I'm 99.9% certain that he/she is wrong; that's the whole point about the 2010 Standard Helmets; the inserts are already installed in there, ready to receive the Hans bolts and spring washers; no need to do anything inside the helmet between shell and padding, whereas with the older Hans posts, you did have to get a captured nut on a big washer between the two, hence the requirement that it only be done by the maker/authorised agent.

Just downloaded this from Arai's website http://www.whyarai.co.uk/standards-explained.php ; my bold highlighting >

Snell SA 2010

New certification from Snell Foundation comprises two standards, SA2010 for helmets factory fitted with HANS anchors, and SAH2010 for helmets with an M6 terminal which accepts all forms of neck restraint anchors, these can then be fitted later by the user themselves without affecting the homologation.

[AndyMil]

splitpin said:

If he/she was talking about a Snell and/or FIA 2010 helmet, I'm 99.9% certain that he/she is wrong; that's the whole point about the 2010 Standard Helmets; the inserts are already installed in there, ready to receive the Hans bolts and spring washers; no need to do anything inside the helmet between shell and padding, whereas with the older Hans posts, you did have to get a captured nut on a big washer between the two, hence the requirement that it only be done by the maker/authorised agent.

Just downloaded this from Arai's website http://www.whyarai.co.uk/standards-explained.php ; my bold highlighting >

Snell SA 2010

New certification from Snell Foundation comprises two standards, SA2010 for helmets factory fitted with HANS anchors, and SAH2010 for helmets with an M6 terminal which accepts all forms of neck restraint anchors, these can then be fitted later by the user themselves without affecting the homologation.

AFIAK SAH is for Snell approved helmets with Hans posts fitted and SA is for those without, see here; http://www.smf.org/stds

I cannot see any valid reson for buying a helmet without Hans posts, unless you're a tightwad, even if you don't intend to use them immediately!

[AndyMil]

Also when they fit the posts aftermarket, they supply and fit the FIA sticker to the helmet, these are numbered and can only be fitted by approved people.

Helmets have been seen at scrutineering with home fitted Hans posts with a big washer and a nyloc nut inside!!!!

[djroadboy]

AndyMil said:

I cannot see any valid reson for buying a helmet without Hans posts, unless you're a tightwad, even if you don't intend to use them immediately!

The guy has already given his very valid reason. It would perhaps be prudent to read the thread properly before wading in with accusations.

/2p

Dan

[splitpin]

AndyMil said:

Also when they fit the posts aftermarket, they supply and fit the FIA sticker to the helmet, these are numbered and can only be fitted by approved people.

Get upto speed chap, that's what is required by FIA 8858-2002, I'm asking about Snell 2010 and FIA 8858-2010

This 'tightwad' enough for you? >

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/helmets/a...

Edited by splitpin on Monday 9th April 01:07

[spyderman8]

splitpin said:

New certification from Snell Foundation comprises two standards, SA2010 for helmets factory fitted with HANS anchors, and SAH2010 for helmets with an M6 terminal which accepts all forms of neck restraint anchors, these can then be fitted later by the user themselves without affecting the homologation.

Brilliant - couldn't be clearer - thanks for posting.

[NJH]

Different question. I have that exact same helmet but bought mine a couple of years back when it was SA2005 (ISTR?). Is it possible to have it serviced/refurbed by Arai and for them to fit the newer 2010 sticker in it as AFAIK they are the exact same helmet? Probably not worth worrying as 2005 will likely be extant for long enough?

[splitpin]

NJH said:

Different question. I have that exact same helmet but bought mine a couple of years back when it was SA2005 (ISTR?). Is it possible to have it serviced/refurbed by Arai and for them to fit the newer 2010 sticker in it as AFAIK they are the exact same helmet? Probably not worth worrying as 2005 will likely be extant for long enough?

Funnily enough, DT have it on 'clearance', albeit Small only > http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/clearance...

To answer your question, I very much doubt it: I think the standard(s) it complied with when it was made is (are) with it for life and whether or not it complies with the latest standards is irrelevant in terms of getting it re-classified. Even if it were possible (like I say I very much doubt it), I suspect the logistics would be pretty well untenable and it probably wouldn't make sense cost-wise.

Note that with this SA2005 one, the Hans posts were available 'factory-fitted' as in effect the equivalent FIA Standard (8858-2002) effectively required that.

I think I may have read somewhere that Snell 2005 helmets might no longer be acceptable from 2019 relative to the FIA, so judging from previous experience perhaps in terms of the MSA (via The Blue Book) perhaps 2021/2?; in other words, a long time away, the more so if you only compete in the UK.

Have you been pleased with the helmet?

[NJH]

Yes its brilliant. Very very comfortable regardless of the conditions. I also followed the old adage that you want a helmet with as small as viewing aperture as you can get away with. In this case my glasses slide in nicely leaving just a small gap top and bottom so I am not loosing anything in terms of vision. I bought mine with the HANS posts already fitted and have always worn the thing with HANS.

Overall its a helmet that for me just works perfectly, but I guess I must have an Arai shaped head as its only the Arais that fit me comfortably. Bell is impossible for me, I tried on some of their models the shape is all wrong.

[AndyMil]

djroadboy said:

The guy has already given his very valid reason. It would perhaps be prudent to read the thread properly before wading in with accusations.

/2p

Dan

If you can show me the VALID reason for not wanting to purchase a helmet with post fitted then I'll apologise, all I can see is questions as to the compatibility of Snell and FIA standards, and wether scrutineers will pass if the standards are mixed.
All Hans posts are FIA approved not Snell, so the only posts ever fitted have been and will continue to be FIA posts, so there is no question of mixed approvals on SA/SAH2010 helmets, what cannot be done is 8858-2010 posts to SA2005 helmets. This is what is meant by mixed approvals.
If the helmet is purchased with posts fitted, or they are purchased at the same time, there will be no problem at all.
As for tethers, I'm sure the design of the attachment plate/loop has not changed.
and if the OP is spending that much on a helmet then a pair of posts would be well worth the extra £40.

[splitpin]

Why don't you listen?; it's not because I want to buy a helmet without posts fitted, it's because I can't

I can't find anyone that supplies that particular SA2010 helmet that I have my eye on with the FIA 8858-2010 posts already fitted; as it says on DT (likewise MSAR & JJC), they have to be bought seperately. Anyway, it's no longer a problem: I have now had it confirmed that unlike the FIA 8858-2002 posts, that FIA 8858-2010 posts can INDEED be retrofitted to a Snell SAH2010 helmet BY THE CUSTOMER. So my new Bell Snell 2010 helmet may well have Scroth FIA 8858-2010 Hans clips fitted. And if the Scrut says 'how come they aren't' Bell marked posts?', I'll say that's because I fitted them myself just as Snell SAH2010 allows. If he doesn't let me race with it and/or impounds it, I'll see him in court.

See I can be just as arsey abrupt and rude as you.

[djroadboy]

Glad you got your answer and got sorted.

Dan

[splitpin]

AndyMil said:

..... what cannot be done is 8858-2010 posts to SA2005 helmets. This is what is meant by mixed approvals.

Now I spoke to someone at Snell today and he disagrees with that; in fact he said that there is more than one F1 Driver competing this year who is using a Snell SA2005 Helmet fitted with FIA 8858-2010 'posts'.

Clearly, it is a minefield of apparent total confusion/individuals doing their own interpretation and some sort of proper clarification to both scrutineers and competitors is needed from the MSA asap.

[BertBert]

and far more important than all this helmet wrangling, is when are you going racing Trev?

BB

[Count Johnny]

BertBert said:

and far more important than all this helmet wrangling, is when are you going racing Trev?

I thought it was Trev Junior (WillBee of this parish) who was doing the driving - with Trev (Senior) keeping busy setting Carter Ruck on the safety scrutineers.

Hope I'm not behind him in the queue!

Edited by Count Johnny on Wednesday 11th April 05:54