Rear brake lights
Discussion
So now we are to run rear brake lights on sports prototypes, but not on single states or perversely Clubmans or Legends
What the hell do the MSA technical committees do? Is there anyone on them that actually races cars?
why on some cars but not on others? if its safety related? If its not, why do it?
Read the reg on aerodynamic devices, not protruding more than 100mm from bodywork, this makes most SPs illegal!?!
Simon
What the hell do the MSA technical committees do? Is there anyone on them that actually races cars?
why on some cars but not on others? if its safety related? If its not, why do it?
Read the reg on aerodynamic devices, not protruding more than 100mm from bodywork, this makes most SPs illegal!?!
Simon
As you might expect, I've done a bit of work on this. 
The 100mm thing was actually in force last year and the only change to the reg, for 2013, was to regulate the height of the wing in relation to the ROPS.
At the beginning of 2012, I corresponded with John Symes (Technical Director of the MSA) pointing out that - if the 'bodywork' was the extent of the envelope that covered the running gear, as one might think - then just about every sports racing car that I could think of was illegal.
I then pointed out that, in The Grey Book, 'bodywork' was defined in Section B as being [something like] all parts of a vehicle that are definitely not the engine, gearbox, running gear, etc, that are licked by the airstream, and set forth an argument, on this basis, that the wing support structure must therefore be 'bodywork'. I have it in writing that he accepted this argument.
Most recently, this matter came up as an issue at the 750 - who wished to gain their own clarification - and John Symes has told them that any car that was accepted in 2012 will be legal in 2013, while they sorted out a regulation that was actually intended to pin back hatchbacks. See the 750's website, BikeSports forum for more.
I have some more detailed stuff on this - which also deals with front splitter extension - which I'll email to you if you like.
On the question of brake lights, this IS a change for 2013, and I queried it with John Symes as - apart from sports racing cars - the new regulation mandated brake lights for single seaters (and I was hoping to tow sports racing cars along with single seaters).
Unfortunately, they have changed the regulation, with immediate effect, (see page 6, latest MSA newsletter) but only to exempt single seaters.
If anyone can tell me why Clubmans, 750 Formula and Legends cars (FFS!) are also exempt, please let me know.
The 100mm thing was actually in force last year and the only change to the reg, for 2013, was to regulate the height of the wing in relation to the ROPS.
At the beginning of 2012, I corresponded with John Symes (Technical Director of the MSA) pointing out that - if the 'bodywork' was the extent of the envelope that covered the running gear, as one might think - then just about every sports racing car that I could think of was illegal.
I then pointed out that, in The Grey Book, 'bodywork' was defined in Section B as being [something like] all parts of a vehicle that are definitely not the engine, gearbox, running gear, etc, that are licked by the airstream, and set forth an argument, on this basis, that the wing support structure must therefore be 'bodywork'. I have it in writing that he accepted this argument.
Most recently, this matter came up as an issue at the 750 - who wished to gain their own clarification - and John Symes has told them that any car that was accepted in 2012 will be legal in 2013, while they sorted out a regulation that was actually intended to pin back hatchbacks. See the 750's website, BikeSports forum for more.
I have some more detailed stuff on this - which also deals with front splitter extension - which I'll email to you if you like.
On the question of brake lights, this IS a change for 2013, and I queried it with John Symes as - apart from sports racing cars - the new regulation mandated brake lights for single seaters (and I was hoping to tow sports racing cars along with single seaters).
Unfortunately, they have changed the regulation, with immediate effect, (see page 6, latest MSA newsletter) but only to exempt single seaters.
If anyone can tell me why Clubmans, 750 Formula and Legends cars (FFS!) are also exempt, please let me know.
Edited by Count Johnny on Friday 18th January 05:20
Count Johnny said:
If anyone can tell me why Clubmans, 750 Formula and Legends cars (FFS!) are also exempt, please let me know.
I havent got my copy of the blue book yet, but are legends and 750 formula exempt via the blue book or via there own championship regulations? I used to race caterhams, and the R300 didnt have brake lights from what I remember, and this was covered by the championship specific regs. Which is why when they went into other championships they had to fit them on the cages. If you are in a series it may be worth speaking to your co-ordinatior/tech man to get it written in that you do not require them, but obviously they do have to get cleared by the MSA.Hi Mark
The amended reg (which already supercedes what it says in the 2013 Grey Book) reads as follows:
'(Q)19.11.3
With the exception of Single Seater Racing Cars, Clubmans Cars, 750 Formula, Legends Cars and Period A to E, all vehicles must be equipped with brake lights which are directly operated by the braking system without any time delay.'
And trust me. I'm a former Formula Rep, inveterate writer of regs, no stranger to lengthy discourse with the MSA, and object very strongly to being forced to add even an ounce to my car, but I'm afraid that any variation from the Grey Book requires a specific letter of exemption from the MSA. I'm afraid, writing into the series/championship regs - in the hope that the MSA don't notice - doesn't cut it.
For circuit racing, at least, unless your car is listed (above) (or you have a blind, helpful, or incompetent (it has been known)safety scrutineer)) you will need to run brake lights.
Obviously, at least for sports racing cars (which is all I selfishly care about) it doesn't say that they should obey DOT rules, so mine will be small, light, and tucked somewhere where they will have zero effect upon my aero.;)
PS
In case you're unaware, all of the 2013 regs are available in PDF format on the MSA's website.
The amended reg (which already supercedes what it says in the 2013 Grey Book) reads as follows:
'(Q)19.11.3
With the exception of Single Seater Racing Cars, Clubmans Cars, 750 Formula, Legends Cars and Period A to E, all vehicles must be equipped with brake lights which are directly operated by the braking system without any time delay.'
And trust me. I'm a former Formula Rep, inveterate writer of regs, no stranger to lengthy discourse with the MSA, and object very strongly to being forced to add even an ounce to my car, but I'm afraid that any variation from the Grey Book requires a specific letter of exemption from the MSA. I'm afraid, writing into the series/championship regs - in the hope that the MSA don't notice - doesn't cut it.
For circuit racing, at least, unless your car is listed (above) (or you have a blind, helpful, or incompetent (it has been known
)safety scrutineer)) you will need to run brake lights.Obviously, at least for sports racing cars (which is all I selfishly care about) it doesn't say that they should obey DOT rules, so mine will be small, light, and tucked somewhere where they will have zero effect upon my aero.;)
PS
In case you're unaware, all of the 2013 regs are available in PDF format on the MSA's website.
Edited by Count Johnny on Friday 18th January 09:10
Count Johnny said:
Hi Mark
The amended reg (which already supercedes what it says in the 2013 Grey Book) reads as follows:
'(Q)19.11.3
With the exception of Single Seater Racing Cars, Clubmans Cars, 750 Formula, Legends Cars and Period A to E, all vehicles must be equipped with brake lights which are directly operated by the braking system without any time delay.'
And trust me. I'm a former Formula Rep, inveterate writer of regs, no stranger to lengthy discourse with the MSA, and object very strongly to being forced to add even an ounce to my car, but I'm afraid that any variation from the Grey Book requires a specific letter of exemption from the MSA. I'm afraid, writing into the series/championship regs - in the hope that the MSA don't notice - doesn't cut it.
For circuit racing, at least, unless your car is listed (above) (or you have a blind, helpful, or incompetent (it has been known)safety scrutineer)) you will need to run brake lights.
Obviously, at least for sports racing cars (which is all I selfishly care about) it doesn't say that they should obey DOT rules, so mine will be small, light, and tucked somewhere where they will have zero effect upon my aero.;)
PS
In case you're unaware, all of the 2013 regs are available in PDF format on the MSA's website.
Bugger!! I have always run in 'production' style cars so have always had break lights or at least the wiring for the break lights has always been in place. I guess the problem will be those who have to re-wire the car just to take the lights. But I dont understand why legends and such like are exempt, single seaters I can accept. The amended reg (which already supercedes what it says in the 2013 Grey Book) reads as follows:
'(Q)19.11.3
With the exception of Single Seater Racing Cars, Clubmans Cars, 750 Formula, Legends Cars and Period A to E, all vehicles must be equipped with brake lights which are directly operated by the braking system without any time delay.'
And trust me. I'm a former Formula Rep, inveterate writer of regs, no stranger to lengthy discourse with the MSA, and object very strongly to being forced to add even an ounce to my car, but I'm afraid that any variation from the Grey Book requires a specific letter of exemption from the MSA. I'm afraid, writing into the series/championship regs - in the hope that the MSA don't notice - doesn't cut it.
For circuit racing, at least, unless your car is listed (above) (or you have a blind, helpful, or incompetent (it has been known
)safety scrutineer)) you will need to run brake lights.Obviously, at least for sports racing cars (which is all I selfishly care about) it doesn't say that they should obey DOT rules, so mine will be small, light, and tucked somewhere where they will have zero effect upon my aero.;)
PS
In case you're unaware, all of the 2013 regs are available in PDF format on the MSA's website.
Edited by Count Johnny on Friday 18th January 09:10
I thought Caterham had a letter from the MSA excluding the R300 as they put it down as a fire risk (they seemed to get a way with it for a while) but it will be a pain for those this them as I believe that the wiring loom doesnt have the wires for brakes.
markbates said:
I havent got my copy of the blue book yet, but are legends and 750 formula exempt via the blue book or via there own championship regulations? I used to race caterhams, and the R300 didnt have brake lights from what I remember, and this was covered by the championship specific regs. Which is why when they went into other championships they had to fit them on the cages. If you are in a series it may be worth speaking to your co-ordinatior/tech man to get it written in that you do not require them, but obviously they do have to get cleared by the MSA.
You can't override the general regulations with event or championship supplementary regulations, unless the GRs include a phrase like "unless specifed in the SRs" for the regulation you wish to modify.Count Johnny said:
Fire Risk? Blimey, it's a bit of a worry if brake lights can cause a fire risk! No wonder their F1 car is s
te!
I always thought it was a funny one, although apparently they had a crash in Europe somewere and decided that as the fuel tank was so close to the wiring one had to go. Never did understand how they got it past the MSA as they ran proper FIA spec fuel cells. But hey sometimes it may be down to the wine and dine approach te! (Thats a joke by the way).Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff