Leave a car's width in 2014
Discussion
As we are having so much fun with one wheel off, I thought I'd have a go at the new defensive rule as well that says you must leave a car's width if you go back on the racing line after defending.
Firstly have I got the right understanding of what it will mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ13QgnLCjw&fea...
Bert
PS FAOD nothing wrong with what's in the vid, just using it to illustrate what I think the new rule will rule out!
Firstly have I got the right understanding of what it will mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ13QgnLCjw&fea...
Bert
PS FAOD nothing wrong with what's in the vid, just using it to illustrate what I think the new rule will rule out!
My worry about this new rule, and the new rule about track limits, is that it requires observers to make instant decisions which cannot be appealed by the driver (since the observers are judges of fact). The observers are marshalls, few of whom have ever sat behind the wheel of a race car and who have little or no conception of what is involved in driving a racing car at racing speed. They get blase because they see it so often from the outside, and fail to understand it from the drivers point of view. At the moment, observer errors mostly consist of failing to see what is happening in the incidents on track.It's not so important that they fail to see things. The new rules require them to positively identify driver errors. If they get these observations wrong it will poison the relationship between drivers and marshalls .....and then we should probably all give up and do something else....
Good question Bert....and thanks for the public service of raising the debate......
Whats the difference between the racing line and a defensive line....to me thsts the racing line through there......but to someone else....??
And it would be a brave soul who stuck their car up the outside going into the bottom of the mountain...
DO you have any similar instructional videos on the "off track" rule....the ruling wasnt clear to me from Mr Palmer's comments in Autosport.
If he builds concrete run offs, people will use them...to build them then say "stay off" is not the solution....
next he will be insisting we fit the same tech as he fits on his Corporate day cars at Bedford...cross a white line and the engine dies...
Whats the difference between the racing line and a defensive line....to me thsts the racing line through there......but to someone else....??
And it would be a brave soul who stuck their car up the outside going into the bottom of the mountain...
DO you have any similar instructional videos on the "off track" rule....the ruling wasnt clear to me from Mr Palmer's comments in Autosport.
If he builds concrete run offs, people will use them...to build them then say "stay off" is not the solution....
next he will be insisting we fit the same tech as he fits on his Corporate day cars at Bedford...cross a white line and the engine dies...
Good point there, hadn't even thought about how the racing line is defined.
I wasn't suggesting that it'd be any use trying to be on the outside going round there, but in 2014 you'd be able to take that wide line in those circumstances, safe in the knowledge that if you got punted off, you'd be in the right according to the new rule!
Bert
I wasn't suggesting that it'd be any use trying to be on the outside going round there, but in 2014 you'd be able to take that wide line in those circumstances, safe in the knowledge that if you got punted off, you'd be in the right according to the new rule!
Bert
Imagine this situation. The car in front is off line, has a glance in his mirrors and sees that the car behind is to far back to make a pass so he moves across on line coming into the braking zone. The guy behind thinks he can make a lunge at a pass and commits to it just as the lead car is moving across to close the door. The 2 cars crash into each other. Under this new rule the lead car may be judged to have committed an offence but of course he will claim the following car was too far back and thus there was no reason for him to disadvantage himself and drive off the racing line. He will also then claim that the following cars ultra late braking move was crazy and unlikely to succeed without contact i.e. he drove into me.
I suspect we need to use the actual wording of the new rule...
Does that sound the the right interpretation?
Bert
MSA said:
In response to each attempted overtaking manoeuvre no more than one change of direction to defend a position is permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line having earlier defended his position off-line should leave at least one car's width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
In your example, the car in front couldn't argue that the car behind was not close enough therefore he was allowed to re-take the racing line without the car's width gap. If the car in front had moved offline to defend, that is the determining factor and it looks absolute. In that case a car's width is needed. So every time you defend (by coming off the racing line) coming into a corner, you must leave a car's width.Does that sound the the right interpretation?
Bert
BertBert said:
As we are having so much fun with one wheel off, I thought I'd have a go at the new defensive rule as well that says you must leave a car's width if you go back on the racing line after defending.
Firstly have I got the right understanding of what it will mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ13QgnLCjw&fea...
Bert
PS FAOD nothing wrong with what's in the vid, just using it to illustrate what I think the new rule will rule out!
Can you even fit 2 cars side by side at that point. It's marginal according to the new rule. Firstly have I got the right understanding of what it will mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ13QgnLCjw&fea...
Bert
PS FAOD nothing wrong with what's in the vid, just using it to illustrate what I think the new rule will rule out!
I think the new rule is good - basically you can't double move and not give them a car width. There were some good examples at Monza yesterday - Alonso on Webber was a good clean move.
Re observers.
My experience is that they miss anything of importance and report non events !
BertBert said:
I suspect we need to use the actual wording of the new rule...
Does that sound the the right interpretation?
Bert
I think that is a fair interpretation. The test case will be in multi model or multi marque racing where cars may have unbalanced straight line performance vs cornering and braking performance. Personally I think its a good rule and easy to understand if applied verbatim even if perhaps it may create some odd situations.MSA said:
In response to each attempted overtaking manoeuvre no more than one change of direction to defend a position is permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line having earlier defended his position off-line should leave at least one car's width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
In your example, the car in front couldn't argue that the car behind was not close enough therefore he was allowed to re-take the racing line without the car's width gap. If the car in front had moved offline to defend, that is the determining factor and it looks absolute. In that case a car's width is needed. So every time you defend (by coming off the racing line) coming into a corner, you must leave a car's width.Does that sound the the right interpretation?
Bert
Hopefully this would stop this kind of dangerous driving.
http://youtu.be/E3nSOKdTWuQ
Personally whoever's in the red car should face a ban for this blatant incident
http://youtu.be/E3nSOKdTWuQ
Personally whoever's in the red car should face a ban for this blatant incident
The move in the video would be illegal under current rules as the leading car has made two moves to defend his line. I don't see how a car can return to the racing line & leave a car's width if the normal line is to clip the kerb! It does seem to me that in attempting to clarify an existing rule the MSA has introduced ambiguity. Looks like another topic for next year's marshals' training days!
. . . but what the hell do I know about such matters - I'm just a mere observer whose competitive motor sport experience all happened in the left hand seat of a (RHD!) rally car!
Could I suggest to the people who are slagging off observers that they take the trouble to spend a day on post & see just how difficult the job is & judge for themselves how professionally most observers approach the job! Yes, incidents do get missed & maybe not reported as accurately as is desirable, but the first rule of incident reporting is to report only what you saw & to report only facts - apportioning blame is the sole responsibility of the Clerks. Some of you may have had unfortunate experinces. . . don't tar us all with the same brush.
. . . but what the hell do I know about such matters - I'm just a mere observer whose competitive motor sport experience all happened in the left hand seat of a (RHD!) rally car!
Could I suggest to the people who are slagging off observers that they take the trouble to spend a day on post & see just how difficult the job is & judge for themselves how professionally most observers approach the job! Yes, incidents do get missed & maybe not reported as accurately as is desirable, but the first rule of incident reporting is to report only what you saw & to report only facts - apportioning blame is the sole responsibility of the Clerks. Some of you may have had unfortunate experinces. . . don't tar us all with the same brush.
bmwguy said:
My worry about this new rule, and the new rule about track limits, is that it requires observers to make instant decisions which cannot be appealed by the driver (since the observers are judges of fact). The observers are marshalls, few of whom have ever sat behind the wheel of a race car and who have little or no conception of what is involved in driving a racing car at racing speed. They get blase because they see it so often from the outside, and fail to understand it from the drivers point of view. At the moment, observer errors mostly consist of failing to see what is happening in the incidents on track.It's not so important that they fail to see things. The new rules require them to positively identify driver errors. If they get these observations wrong it will poison the relationship between drivers and marshalls .....and then we should probably all give up and do something else....
absolutely spot on! and this also goes for most officials too!Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff