Newcomer to UK club racing: PCGB vs Caterham vs Ginetta?
Discussion
I've put it off for too long now: it's time to bite the bullet. So I've told myself to stop working weekends and persuade the wife and kids that I will go mental if I don't get out on track this year.
The question is what do I race? I've raced overseas - mostly in a Porsche Cup car, but (a) this is prohibitively expensive without sponsorship (esp in the UK) and (b) I expect the level of competition in the UK to be much higher and so I'm probably more suited to amateur club racing.
I've been reading through various PH threads and struggling to work out whether going back to Porsche club racing would suit me, or entering one of the truly bewildering array of Caterham championships, or one of the (easier to understand) Ginetta championships.
I would really appreciate some guidance and suggestions from club racers. Some pros and cons as I see it (feel free to correct me):
PCGB:
Pros: familiarity with the car (esp 911) so my hard won skills don't have to be relearnt
Cons: cars will be older and potentially expensive to run
Costs: £20k outlay on a race car (say 996 Carrera) plus running costs - is £10k p.a. realistic?
Caterham:
Pros: iconic car and driving experience, lots of racers, the chance for me to learn to build my own car
Cons: I can barely differentiate a spanner from a screwdriver, might take me a year or more to build a car, which championship/ which car???
Costs: really difficult to get a handle on how much this will cost. I gather the basic car is £18k plus build costs and options, plus say £10k p.a. running costs - though I fear I might end up craving more power early on and I understand the higher series can cost as much as £40-50k p.a. to run plus the cost of the car itself.
Ginetta:
Pros: G40R looks awesome and has good reviews, all in one package including car and race weekends, leaving me hopefully with a fair amount of equity in the deal when I come to sell
Cons: are grid sizes big enough? Will I find the G40R a bit of a disappointment after my old Porsche? Can I get more bang for buck in a Caterham?
Costs: if I've read the fine print correctly, you lease a car for the full season at £21k+VAT including support, or buy a G40R for £28k+VAT with a few races and support thrown in.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts, chaps...
The question is what do I race? I've raced overseas - mostly in a Porsche Cup car, but (a) this is prohibitively expensive without sponsorship (esp in the UK) and (b) I expect the level of competition in the UK to be much higher and so I'm probably more suited to amateur club racing.
I've been reading through various PH threads and struggling to work out whether going back to Porsche club racing would suit me, or entering one of the truly bewildering array of Caterham championships, or one of the (easier to understand) Ginetta championships.
I would really appreciate some guidance and suggestions from club racers. Some pros and cons as I see it (feel free to correct me):
PCGB:
Pros: familiarity with the car (esp 911) so my hard won skills don't have to be relearnt
Cons: cars will be older and potentially expensive to run
Costs: £20k outlay on a race car (say 996 Carrera) plus running costs - is £10k p.a. realistic?
Caterham:
Pros: iconic car and driving experience, lots of racers, the chance for me to learn to build my own car
Cons: I can barely differentiate a spanner from a screwdriver, might take me a year or more to build a car, which championship/ which car???
Costs: really difficult to get a handle on how much this will cost. I gather the basic car is £18k plus build costs and options, plus say £10k p.a. running costs - though I fear I might end up craving more power early on and I understand the higher series can cost as much as £40-50k p.a. to run plus the cost of the car itself.
Ginetta:
Pros: G40R looks awesome and has good reviews, all in one package including car and race weekends, leaving me hopefully with a fair amount of equity in the deal when I come to sell
Cons: are grid sizes big enough? Will I find the G40R a bit of a disappointment after my old Porsche? Can I get more bang for buck in a Caterham?
Costs: if I've read the fine print correctly, you lease a car for the full season at £21k+VAT including support, or buy a G40R for £28k+VAT with a few races and support thrown in.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts, chaps...
Well there are loads more alternatives than that but if you have raced Porsches before you could also look at the Dunlop Porsche cup on the CSCC bill. Should be cheaper than PCGB for several reasons and you could also race in the CSCCs Future Classics and/ or Modern Classics series (40 min races with a pit stop for one or two drivers) on the same weekend.
It doesn't have to be a 911 - 944 and 968 are also very competitive and cheaper to buy and run!.
One of the attractions of these series is the annual pilgrimage to Spa in june, and this year we have 2 x 40 min races for your travel money and an entry fee of about £595.
It doesn't have to be a 911 - 944 and 968 are also very competitive and cheaper to buy and run!.
One of the attractions of these series is the annual pilgrimage to Spa in june, and this year we have 2 x 40 min races for your travel money and an entry fee of about £595.
andy97 said:
Well there are loads more alternatives than that but if you have raced Porsches before you could also look at the Dunlop Porsche cup on the CSCC bill. Should be cheaper than PCGB for several reasons and you could also race in the CSCCs Future Classics and/ or Modern Classics series (40 min races with a pit stop for one or two drivers) on the same weekend.
It doesn't have to be a 911 - 944 and 968 are also very competitive and cheaper to buy and run!.
One of the attractions of these series is the annual pilgrimage to Spa in june, and this year we have 2 x 40 min races for your travel money and an entry fee of about £595.
CSCC looks interesting. To what degree is it cheaper than PCGB (can't find cost info on the website - maybe I just didn't look in he right place) and why?It doesn't have to be a 911 - 944 and 968 are also very competitive and cheaper to buy and run!.
One of the attractions of these series is the annual pilgrimage to Spa in june, and this year we have 2 x 40 min races for your travel money and an entry fee of about £595.
Stevemcmaster said:
Caterham Graduates Championship has a great range of classes and a budget ranging from around 5 k for the season up. Racing is good and the club is brilliantly friendly...
Now you've got me browsing the for sale section of the Graduates site. Looks like great value for money racing. On Caterham's own website, I note that costs are not shown after the Academy series basic cost of £21k, which I guess is a bit worrying! Also the cars they list for sale seem to be around 5 grand more expensive than the equivalent elsewhere.Is there a relatively simple way of sampling different types of Caterham so I have a better idea of what kind of car works for me?
Ah wait - edited to add, just seen McMillan's website. I think the best way forward is to give them a call and talk through the options...
Also found HustleRussell's excellent post from last year where he summarises the different classes in Graduates:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=130...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=130...
Our first year in PCGB and it's without doubt the most expensive club series in the UK.
£580 registration and you need to be a member of the PCGB as well at £70.
Race fees are also very high - Silverstone GP triple header last year was £620 where most other races were £490. The PCGB do bring a very nice truck to races and provide lunch in their hospitality centre.
Compare that to the 750MC and the annual fee is just £20 !! and a race fee for a 45min race is £325 (CSCC is a similar cost to 750MC)
You will have to run a new set of slicks every event to be competitive and those come on at £1300 i think
So you're looking at £2000 before you leave home. On the plus side I think it's probably the top club race series and all their races are generally 1 day events which keeps costs down and is cheaper than the BRSCC Porsche series because their events are all 2 day events.
CSCC is def worth looking at for sure and check with the 750MC if you're 911 would be able to race in the Roadsports.
£580 registration and you need to be a member of the PCGB as well at £70.
Race fees are also very high - Silverstone GP triple header last year was £620 where most other races were £490. The PCGB do bring a very nice truck to races and provide lunch in their hospitality centre.
Compare that to the 750MC and the annual fee is just £20 !! and a race fee for a 45min race is £325 (CSCC is a similar cost to 750MC)
You will have to run a new set of slicks every event to be competitive and those come on at £1300 i think
So you're looking at £2000 before you leave home. On the plus side I think it's probably the top club race series and all their races are generally 1 day events which keeps costs down and is cheaper than the BRSCC Porsche series because their events are all 2 day events.
CSCC is def worth looking at for sure and check with the 750MC if you're 911 would be able to race in the Roadsports.
Formerly 'HustleRussell'!
Glad Steve recommended Grads club as I was about to. Glad you found my old post helpful. Everything is much the same as it was back then except we've witnessed a marked increase in the number of newer Ford powered cars trickling down from Caterham Motorsport and reqistering in Grads instead.
I sold my car at the end of least season for boring practical reasons (working in Thailand for most of this year) but when the time comes to buy another race car I'll almost certainly end up back in Grads.
Glad Steve recommended Grads club as I was about to. Glad you found my old post helpful. Everything is much the same as it was back then except we've witnessed a marked increase in the number of newer Ford powered cars trickling down from Caterham Motorsport and reqistering in Grads instead.
I sold my car at the end of least season for boring practical reasons (working in Thailand for most of this year) but when the time comes to buy another race car I'll almost certainly end up back in Grads.
Yes, I think you're right Chris. I absolutely need to be clear on what I will enjoy driving. I spent a lot of time learning the nuances of a Cup car / GT3 - as a result I'm not altogether keen on the Boxster/944/968s. For the experience they deliver, I can't personally justify the running costs. The costs of the series itself will pale in comparison.
So I think I'm veering towards the lightweights. Ginetta seems a great package (I used to race against G40s) but the initial outlay is high. Caterhams can be had for very little and are a big omission from my bucket list. I've always wanted to know what they feel like.
So I think I'm veering towards the lightweights. Ginetta seems a great package (I used to race against G40s) but the initial outlay is high. Caterhams can be had for very little and are a big omission from my bucket list. I've always wanted to know what they feel like.
The guy who won the PCGB championship last year from the same class as me spent allegedly £16K on tyres. That is the price of running on Pirelli Slicks. For the new Dunlop Production Cup for Porsche my car is exactly the same as it would be if still racing in PCGB (regs are very close, different min weights) yet I doubt I will spend more the £1200 on tyres (2x sets of Dunlop DZ03g).
That in a nutshell is the difference between the 2 options, PCGB is televised this year on Motors TV but the calendar is IMHO awful. CSCC this year will be off to Spa again so Dunlop Production Cup for Porsche entrants have that option on the table.
OP Pete Morris is driving his 996 in the Dunlop series this year, its the closest thing to what you are used to so you may want to talk to EMC Motorsport or Strasse about those cars and the new series.
That in a nutshell is the difference between the 2 options, PCGB is televised this year on Motors TV but the calendar is IMHO awful. CSCC this year will be off to Spa again so Dunlop Production Cup for Porsche entrants have that option on the table.
OP Pete Morris is driving his 996 in the Dunlop series this year, its the closest thing to what you are used to so you may want to talk to EMC Motorsport or Strasse about those cars and the new series.
Harris_I said:
Yes, I think you're right Chris. I absolutely need to be clear on what I will enjoy driving. I spent a lot of time learning the nuances of a Cup car / GT3 - as a result I'm not altogether keen on the Boxster/944/968s. For the experience they deliver, I can't personally justify the running costs. The costs of the series itself will pale in comparison.
So I think I'm veering towards the lightweights. Ginetta seems a great package (I used to race against G40s) but the initial outlay is high. Caterhams can be had for very little and are a big omission from my bucket list. I've always wanted to know what they feel like.
I came from Caterhams (front runner a decade ago ) and had a one off race (R400s) last year. The old superlight/roadsports with the rover engine was a great car. The Ford engine in my view is a poor substitute - it's heavier and it's power band is quite low - ie you change up below the redline and I really didn't enjoy the experience. But if you are looking speak with Team Parkers - those are the guys to run with. So I think I'm veering towards the lightweights. Ginetta seems a great package (I used to race against G40s) but the initial outlay is high. Caterhams can be had for very little and are a big omission from my bucket list. I've always wanted to know what they feel like.
PCGB - tyres. This season you'll be restricted to one set per weekend. So max of 10 sets for the year - so that's just over £9k plus any others you buy for testing. So I can well believe that someone could have spent £16k last year ! The 996C2 seems to be the favoured car this year - our Boxster will be in the minority http://www.porscheclubmotorsport.co.uk/sites/defau...
Ginetta's simply don't interest me - don't know why, they just don't !
woof said:
I came from Caterhams (front runner a decade ago ) and had a one off race (R400s) last year. The old superlight/roadsports with the rover engine was a great car. The Ford engine in my view is a poor substitute - it's heavier and it's power band is quite low - ie you change up below the redline and I really didn't enjoy the experience. But if you are looking speak with Team Parkers - those are the guys to run with.
I agree, the Duratec just doesn't 'feel' like a race car engine. K-series cars are still competing in decent numbers in the Grads club. BritishRacinGrin said:
woof said:
I came from Caterhams (front runner a decade ago ) and had a one off race (R400s) last year. The old superlight/roadsports with the rover engine was a great car. The Ford engine in my view is a poor substitute - it's heavier and it's power band is quite low - ie you change up below the redline and I really didn't enjoy the experience. But if you are looking speak with Team Parkers - those are the guys to run with.
I agree, the Duratec just doesn't 'feel' like a race car engine. K-series cars are still competing in decent numbers in the Grads club. Grads is def good "cheap" racing.
Harris_I said:
Thought so. It's probably safer for my wallet if I sample a grad car instead. I'll contact McMillan.
Thanks to everyone for all the very helpful advice so far.
and the R300's now have a £8k worth of upgrades with a new sequential gearbox as an option this year - silly money for a mid level club series. Thanks to everyone for all the very helpful advice so far.
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