RS6 engine install costs conpaired to LS conversion
Discussion
Buy an LQ9 truck motor...cheap as chips, almost an iron version of the LS3... parts are cheap, great power delivery/upgrades everywhere and plenty of current knowledge on installs...lots less oil leaks than the SBC too !
Audi unit, very nice but seems to run away with a few quid getting it running and all the custom bits to install ?
Audi unit, very nice but seems to run away with a few quid getting it running and all the custom bits to install ?
are there many more custom bits to make compared to LS transplant...
If im looking at this conversion the main reason for spending more money is the fact
1/ I have an excuse for having the car off the road to do a long term conversion.
2/ I dont need to worry about reliability in the future. My SBC was running well, but took apart to check rather than replace alot. Ok its being rebuilt to a very high standard, with Mayle pistons etc etc and will be a cracking engine but I do like to use the power rather than have it on tap. The idea of an audi unit is german engineering at its best and in a 950kg car it will last for ever.. The LS is after all a modern push rod small block..
I didnt know about the LQ9... be interesting to know the costs of a secondhand unit.. audi are 3500-4000 with turbos ecu, wiring everything and im sure some of the german guys here have the dims for adaptor plate to the G50.
Also whats my 575 hp sb worth.. after all it is a dry sump engine..
Dom
If im looking at this conversion the main reason for spending more money is the fact
1/ I have an excuse for having the car off the road to do a long term conversion.
2/ I dont need to worry about reliability in the future. My SBC was running well, but took apart to check rather than replace alot. Ok its being rebuilt to a very high standard, with Mayle pistons etc etc and will be a cracking engine but I do like to use the power rather than have it on tap. The idea of an audi unit is german engineering at its best and in a 950kg car it will last for ever.. The LS is after all a modern push rod small block..
I didnt know about the LQ9... be interesting to know the costs of a secondhand unit.. audi are 3500-4000 with turbos ecu, wiring everything and im sure some of the german guys here have the dims for adaptor plate to the G50.
Also whats my 575 hp sb worth.. after all it is a dry sump engine..
Dom
I know the guys over at Van Kronenburg Motorsport have done at least one RS6 V8 powered ultima. Might be worth dropping them a line. They also supply ECU/Injection/FSI removal kits for the new Audi engines and have heard of a few guys using them for bits to run the RS4 V8 in other cars.
Dom,
Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor.
My grass mower has a 2 valve head and push rods - and that's where the design should stay - in the garden shed and not in my car
Modern DOHC and multi valve heads are the way to go - not grass mower technology ..........
Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor.
My grass mower has a 2 valve head and push rods - and that's where the design should stay - in the garden shed and not in my car
Modern DOHC and multi valve heads are the way to go - not grass mower technology ..........
Rusti Evo said:
"................
Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor................
Whilst I agree with you that it's still an 'old' design, for a straight replacement fit with a few additional parts it is light years from the SBC in starting/slow idling/no leaks and a good return of mpg and 420 out of the box. I did seriously consider an Audi lump but as I don't weld and not great in fabrication I wasnt confident in doing it myself and would be reliant on others to do the work, so I decided to go for a LS3 which when researched was virtually a straight swap, the extras being adaptor plate, flywheel, exhaust, fuel pump, surge tank and fuel lines.......Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor................
I guess it's swings & roundabout, if fitting an Audi lump you get it cheaper, the diesel box is cheaper with better ratios, but all that saving would've be lost in having to pay out for welding and fabrication of fuel tank, mapping on RR etc.......
But now that I have all this time on my hands and knowing a few more people, if I were to do it again I might go the Audi route and rebuild the whole car again!!!
Graham
Edited by Graham-P on Saturday 21st May 15:56
If I had a factory built example... and being naturally cautious with my cash.. Id keep it as per original Dom...so refit your top spec SBC, sell it and buy one of the bargain half builds to V10-ize...
Regularly people spend silly money on their aspirations....to then lose much of it when selling !
All seems a bit stupid to a simple sort ?
G luck.
Regularly people spend silly money on their aspirations....to then lose much of it when selling !
All seems a bit stupid to a simple sort ?
G luck.
738 driver said:
If I had a factory built example... and being naturally cautious with my cash.. Id keep it as per original Dom...so refit your top spec SBC, sell it and buy one of the bargain half builds to V10-ize...
Regularly people spend silly money on their aspirations....to then lose much of it when selling !
All seems a bit stupid to a simple sort ?
G luck.
Spoken many a true word!!! Thankyou, youve just made me realise what a special car I have..Regularly people spend silly money on their aspirations....to then lose much of it when selling !
All seems a bit stupid to a simple sort ?
G luck.
I best be careful if I buy a part build though, how much have I always talked of building from scratch a diesel V10.
Edited by V8Dom on Saturday 21st May 22:54
Hiya, Im an Audi geek just sold my 520 bhp S4 
.
I know the 5v cylinder V bi turbo engines very well and I am also looking at this conversion in the future. I know that the Audi Specialist MRC Tuning in Banbury ( http://www.mrctuning.com/ )have done an RS6 engine conversion in an Ultima for a customer so it might be worth giving them a ring too. I have used them for tuning my Audi's/VWs for years and IMHO are they best, and I live 400 miles away from them. They can certainly sort out the std RS ECU to run in a kit car without the audi immobilisers and instrument clusters etc as they specialise in the RS6s/4s etc.
Hope that helps.
. I know the 5v cylinder V bi turbo engines very well and I am also looking at this conversion in the future. I know that the Audi Specialist MRC Tuning in Banbury ( http://www.mrctuning.com/ )have done an RS6 engine conversion in an Ultima for a customer so it might be worth giving them a ring too. I have used them for tuning my Audi's/VWs for years and IMHO are they best, and I live 400 miles away from them. They can certainly sort out the std RS ECU to run in a kit car without the audi immobilisers and instrument clusters etc as they specialise in the RS6s/4s etc.
Hope that helps.
Rusti Evo said:
Exquisite quality and refinement from modern designed engines.
RS6 twin turbo V10 anyone? Mmmmmmmmm.........
Note the difference between the V10's.RS6 twin turbo V10 anyone? Mmmmmmmmm.........
The RS6 and the first run of Gallardo's had the 5.0L V10 with normal fuel injection I believe (with the RS6 being twin turbo'd in the factory).
The S6, S8, R8 V10 and the newer Gallardo's all share the 5.2L V10 with Audi's direct injection.
I may be way off though.
Underground Racing has 1000awhp Gallardo's..... (it'll cost you the price of the car again on top to get the 'kit' though).
Rusti Evo said:
Dom,
Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor.
My grass mower has a 2 valve head and push rods - and that's where the design should stay - in the garden shed and not in my car
Modern DOHC and multi valve heads are the way to go - not grass mower technology ..........
And it still works. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Truth is that whilst the LS is an upgrade on the rattling SBC it is still a crude old fashioned push rod motor.
My grass mower has a 2 valve head and push rods - and that's where the design should stay - in the garden shed and not in my car
Modern DOHC and multi valve heads are the way to go - not grass mower technology ..........
LS based engines are so cheap out of the US why would you bother with some expensive german engine. For USD$20k I got a built dry sumped engine using most of the best aftermarket parts you can buy including an alloy World Warhawk block. It made 720hp and 620ft/lb Tq the last run on the engine dyno and only weighed in at 450lbs. Comes with 12 months warranty. It did this with little 1 3/4 headers and a 900 holley at 10.2:1 comp. I dropped the comp so I could put a blower on there later maybe but if you got it built at 12:1 comp it would be an 800hp+ engine. To top it off you can buy ecu's for USD$90. And if you an alternator totally dies and you need to buy a new one it's USD$80 instead of taking out a second mortgage for one (my mate just paid USD$1800 for a new alternator for his 996 GT2)
There is no way you will get a german engine to make that power N/A, last as long and be as cheap as an old tech. push rod.
i was going to stay twin turbo if i went RS6..
Looks like I might bite the bullet and go the LS3 route Kyle suggested, just need to sell all tha parts ive just bought and modified.. If therre is anyone interested in a fresh short block complete with Mayle pistons and just been all balanced please let me know. Its set up as a dry sump motor..
Dom
Looks like I might bite the bullet and go the LS3 route Kyle suggested, just need to sell all tha parts ive just bought and modified.. If therre is anyone interested in a fresh short block complete with Mayle pistons and just been all balanced please let me know. Its set up as a dry sump motor..
Dom
02PRUV said:
And it still works. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
LS based engines are so cheap out of the US why would you bother with some expensive german engine. For USD$20k I got a built dry sumped engine using most of the best aftermarket parts you can buy including an alloy World Warhawk block. It made 720hp and 620ft/lb Tq the last run on the engine dyno and only weighed in at 450lbs. Comes with 12 months warranty. It did this with little 1 3/4 headers and a 900 holley at 10.2:1 comp. I dropped the comp so I could put a blower on there later maybe but if you got it built at 12:1 comp it would be an 800hp+ engine. To top it off you can buy ecu's for USD$90. And if you an alternator totally dies and you need to buy a new one it's USD$80 instead of taking out a second mortgage for one (my mate just paid USD$1800 for a new alternator for his 996 GT2)
There is no way you will get a german engine to make that power N/A, last as long and be as cheap as an old tech. push rod.
Can only agree with that. It's a big misconcieve that pushrod technology is oldtech. I prefer the old fashioned pushrod engine with the use of good parts. Will have no problem to reach the same enginespeeds as a Honda engine with good reliability.LS based engines are so cheap out of the US why would you bother with some expensive german engine. For USD$20k I got a built dry sumped engine using most of the best aftermarket parts you can buy including an alloy World Warhawk block. It made 720hp and 620ft/lb Tq the last run on the engine dyno and only weighed in at 450lbs. Comes with 12 months warranty. It did this with little 1 3/4 headers and a 900 holley at 10.2:1 comp. I dropped the comp so I could put a blower on there later maybe but if you got it built at 12:1 comp it would be an 800hp+ engine. To top it off you can buy ecu's for USD$90. And if you an alternator totally dies and you need to buy a new one it's USD$80 instead of taking out a second mortgage for one (my mate just paid USD$1800 for a new alternator for his 996 GT2)
There is no way you will get a german engine to make that power N/A, last as long and be as cheap as an old tech. push rod.
Tis all relative in the end....fitting a modern multi-valve is no different to installing a Zetec in a Lotus Cortina....if thats what floats yer boat.. 'Ultimately' (no pun) and despite resistance, we all move with technology..who still has a black and white valve TV ?.... To give GM their due's though, many of the worlds best contributed to their LS series motors and although not an expert myself, I'd have to agree theres plenty of modern engineering in there !!
Can I say I am not trying to be confrontational extolling the joys of modern engines - just pointing out the obvious. Take a drive in a modern car and the contrast with the old Chevy is a shock.
I used to love my old pushrod Triumph bikes but in comparison to modern Jap multi-valve stuff they are just like lumps of clanking old farmyard machinery.
Its called progress and learning....just like nobody would risk taking a wetsump V8 onto a circuit any more.
I used to love my old pushrod Triumph bikes but in comparison to modern Jap multi-valve stuff they are just like lumps of clanking old farmyard machinery.
Its called progress and learning....just like nobody would risk taking a wetsump V8 onto a circuit any more.
I will bild my car with a BMW V10 engine wich I have decided after much studies about engines and how they are performing
and I have to say they did not win the Engine of the year award more than ones with this same engine.
Its a well designed engine.
I am connected to a group of racers who use this std 5.0 V10 engine and get with only mods management, exhaust, intake and they see 680 HP and if you ad Cams it will go north of 700 hp and if by then you feel like getting more you can buy a stroker kit bringing it to 5.8 adding approx 100 new fresh ponies into the equation and until here we havent even considered using a turbo, compresor or all these things.
I want to go atmospheric with this engine because that was wat it is designed for and offcourse you have companies like GPower selling a compresor kit that can gain up to 800 plus hp but still prefer atmospheric all the way
Is it expensive I do not think it has to be to much as its my plan to make those parts also become available for others who want to go the same route
what can be expensive is getting the engine to run
1. you can get it to run by its original management than you will need the BMW wiring see autobionics which is a very great thing they are doing
2. you can go aftermarket management and thats the route I will go it saves me the heavy bmw wiring and i can get more hp. the engine settings will be available when I get this working
and I have to say they did not win the Engine of the year award more than ones with this same engine.
Its a well designed engine.
I am connected to a group of racers who use this std 5.0 V10 engine and get with only mods management, exhaust, intake and they see 680 HP and if you ad Cams it will go north of 700 hp and if by then you feel like getting more you can buy a stroker kit bringing it to 5.8 adding approx 100 new fresh ponies into the equation and until here we havent even considered using a turbo, compresor or all these things.
I want to go atmospheric with this engine because that was wat it is designed for and offcourse you have companies like GPower selling a compresor kit that can gain up to 800 plus hp but still prefer atmospheric all the way
Is it expensive I do not think it has to be to much as its my plan to make those parts also become available for others who want to go the same route
what can be expensive is getting the engine to run
1. you can get it to run by its original management than you will need the BMW wiring see autobionics which is a very great thing they are doing
2. you can go aftermarket management and thats the route I will go it saves me the heavy bmw wiring and i can get more hp. the engine settings will be available when I get this working
Rusti Evo said:
Can I say I am not trying to be confrontational extolling the joys of modern engines - just pointing out the obvious. Take a drive in a modern car and the contrast with the old Chevy is a shock.
I used to love my old pushrod Triumph bikes but in comparison to modern Jap multi-valve stuff they are just like lumps of clanking old farmyard machinery.
Its called progress and learning....just like nobody would risk taking a wetsump V8 onto a circuit any more.
But I read somewhere that a chevy ls1/6 out performed the cammer chevy LT engine. This is progress imo.I used to love my old pushrod Triumph bikes but in comparison to modern Jap multi-valve stuff they are just like lumps of clanking old farmyard machinery.
Its called progress and learning....just like nobody would risk taking a wetsump V8 onto a circuit any more.
alfasteve said:
I am connected to a group of racers who use this std 5.0 V10 engine and get with only mods management, exhaust, intake and they see 680 HP and if you ad Cams it will go north of 700 hp
so, with just intake / exhaust / ecu you get to 136bhp/l then add some cams and 140bhp/l......i call Bull****, sorry.
(std engine makes 440Nm @ peak power, assuming you could do the same (which you can't due to engine friction and Intake/EBP both increasing) you'll need to be reving that engine to 11,100rpm to make 700bhp.............. )
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