Discussion
Has anybody tried one of these http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-pumps/...
I am thinking about fitting one in place of the fuel level sender (it will fit) in one tank and then linking the tanks with the two lower tank fittings. I will use the fuel level sender in the other tank for the dash reading.
340 lit at 40 psi should be more than enough for 700hp (I'm only aiming for 550hp). The swirl pot will return to the same tank as the pump sits in and the twin link pipes may not be fast enough to allow filling from one side but will keep up with the fuel pump.
I will fit a coarse filter before the swirl pot and fine after the HP pump. Can't decide whether to fit the pressure relief valve before the rail or after yet.
Paul
I am thinking about fitting one in place of the fuel level sender (it will fit) in one tank and then linking the tanks with the two lower tank fittings. I will use the fuel level sender in the other tank for the dash reading.
340 lit at 40 psi should be more than enough for 700hp (I'm only aiming for 550hp). The swirl pot will return to the same tank as the pump sits in and the twin link pipes may not be fast enough to allow filling from one side but will keep up with the fuel pump.
I will fit a coarse filter before the swirl pot and fine after the HP pump. Can't decide whether to fit the pressure relief valve before the rail or after yet.
Paul
Going to use this http://fuelab.com/prodigy-fuel-pumps/40401-reduced...
With this http://fuelab.com/fuel-pressure-regulators/529-ser...
With this http://fuelab.com/fuel-pressure-regulators/529-ser...
personally I would always stick to proven Bosch pumps rather than these shiny alloy jobs.
I had one that was supposedly rated to 700bhp as per the link above but it failed after 15 minutes on the dyno!!
I have spoken to a few rolling road operators who did not express any surprise when I told them .. !!
I had one that was supposedly rated to 700bhp as per the link above but it failed after 15 minutes on the dyno!!
I have spoken to a few rolling road operators who did not express any surprise when I told them .. !!
First of all I don't own stock in Aeromotive, but if that's the big red washing machine that's refered to then my experince calls B.S. on your observation that over 40 lbs they give up. As I have said before, I have one its got 10,000 plus miles on it and it is run with a Motec data log system which is set up to tell me if fuel pressure drops below 45 lbs its set for 47 lbs. Well not once, not ever, couple of days on the engine dyno, couple of sessions on the rollers, couple of days at the track have I ever seen anything but 47 lbs. The Bosch is a very good pump so is the Aeromotive. The idea of running in tank pumps certainly has merit. Lee
If running a swirl or header tank why cant it be made or modified to accept whatever size unit Paul ?
Lee, the data, from a US testing source, suggests the volume reduction above 40ish psi is quite significant in the brand you mention, others less so. The german one quoted, far less so all the way up to 70 psi. (being the sort of pressures modern injectors are heading toward)
In my experience, the A..000's models were noisy,cumbersome, blingy, dont seem to last well and generally a bit compromised all round. They may well (or should) have improved their products of late.
Lee, the data, from a US testing source, suggests the volume reduction above 40ish psi is quite significant in the brand you mention, others less so. The german one quoted, far less so all the way up to 70 psi. (being the sort of pressures modern injectors are heading toward)
In my experience, the A..000's models were noisy,cumbersome, blingy, dont seem to last well and generally a bit compromised all round. They may well (or should) have improved their products of late.
Edited by 738 driver on Monday 16th January 08:35
738 driver said:
If running a swirl or header tank why cant it be made or modified to accept whatever size unit Paul ?
Lee, the data, from a US testing source, suggests the volume reduction above 40ish psi is quite significant in the brand you mention, others less so. The german one quoted, far less so all the way up to 70 psi. (being the sort of pressures modern injectors are heading toward)
In my experience, the A..000's models were noisy,cumbersome, blingy, dont seem to last well and generally a bit compromised all round. They may well (or should) have improved their products of late.
This would be our concern as well. The LS7 engine requires fuel pressure of around 60psi to allow the injector timing to be optimised.Lee, the data, from a US testing source, suggests the volume reduction above 40ish psi is quite significant in the brand you mention, others less so. The german one quoted, far less so all the way up to 70 psi. (being the sort of pressures modern injectors are heading toward)
In my experience, the A..000's models were noisy,cumbersome, blingy, dont seem to last well and generally a bit compromised all round. They may well (or should) have improved their products of late.
Edited by 738 driver on Monday 16th January 08:35
I am running 60 psi on my ls7 all well, standard 044 pump, it should be noted again that any change in pressure of fuel pump will change your fuel delivery and may require remapping. The fuel map is opening time of injector and the higher the pressure the more fuel will reach the cylinder at same injection time.
I run with two 044's in parell fed by a high volume but lower pressure lift pumps (1 from each tank at a time) to a good size swirl pot.
I run about 80 or 85 PSI it varies only by a max of 0.5 of a PSI EVEN when one of the 044 fuel pump relays failed and it was only running on 044!
All my other non-pump components are Aeromotive and they seem to be good quality stuff.
I run about 80 or 85 PSI it varies only by a max of 0.5 of a PSI EVEN when one of the 044 fuel pump relays failed and it was only running on 044!
All my other non-pump components are Aeromotive and they seem to be good quality stuff.
I run the Aeromotive pump and it has held up very well, in fact better than I would have expected given its abuse. On track if my fuel load gets down to lower than 3/8 tank I experience fuel starvation on high G corners, so the pump has itermittenmt use running dry. That is typically the worst thing you can do for an electric fuel pump, but so far so good. Of course I have now jinxed myself for it to fail next time out!
My advice is don't buy anything the manufacturer doesn't provide a pump curve for, you would think that a given but you'll find it's not always the case. Typically sales and marketing data quotes open flow rates i.e. open hose pumping into a bucket
That said if I were doing a scratch build I'd go for a Weldon pump, acknowledged by many to be the best.
Julian
My advice is don't buy anything the manufacturer doesn't provide a pump curve for, you would think that a given but you'll find it's not always the case. Typically sales and marketing data quotes open flow rates i.e. open hose pumping into a bucket
That said if I were doing a scratch build I'd go for a Weldon pump, acknowledged by many to be the best.
Julian
Storer said:
The above in tank pump is to be my low pressure pump.
I have an A1000 for the high pressure side which should deliver 272kgs fuel / hour at 70psi.
God help me if I am going to use more than a 1/4 tonne of fuel an hour!
Paul
In that case make sure you don't end up pressurising your swirl pot to 40psi...I have an A1000 for the high pressure side which should deliver 272kgs fuel / hour at 70psi.
God help me if I am going to use more than a 1/4 tonne of fuel an hour!
Paul
I intend having a return from the swirl pot to the tank and a pressure relief valve (also returning to tank) so that the pump always provides a positive pressure in the swirl pot of about 8 psi.
My whole fuel pumping system will be located in passenger side pod above the tank with heat shielding of the tanks and the hp pump, filters, swirl pot and pipes.
There will be no obstruction for air flow into the front of the engine bay from underneath (where most air enters) so I am hoping to get good air movement through the rear of the car.
Paul
My whole fuel pumping system will be located in passenger side pod above the tank with heat shielding of the tanks and the hp pump, filters, swirl pot and pipes.
There will be no obstruction for air flow into the front of the engine bay from underneath (where most air enters) so I am hoping to get good air movement through the rear of the car.
Paul
It is my belief although some here think that I am wrong that most of the heat input to the fuel comes from the hp pump thrashing the fuel round and round at a rate high enough to support the massive fuel demand at full throttle when 99% of the time you are only using a tiny fraction of it. Hence the fuel pump control system that I suggest in my first post on this thread. This is proven to me anyway by the fact that the pumping problems that I have occur much more quickly when the tank is nearly empty.
I would also recommend having the swirl pot mounted low in the chassis so that it fills at least partly by gravity. It is then easy to control both LP and HP pumps using the ECU so that they are switched off in the event of an accident when the engine stops. As you know the HP pump only runs momentarily at ign on and if the swirl pot is empty at this time the fuel rails are not primed. Most of the current american "Muscle cars" seem to be using a fuel pump control system on their in tank pumps.
I would also recommend having the swirl pot mounted low in the chassis so that it fills at least partly by gravity. It is then easy to control both LP and HP pumps using the ECU so that they are switched off in the event of an accident when the engine stops. As you know the HP pump only runs momentarily at ign on and if the swirl pot is empty at this time the fuel rails are not primed. Most of the current american "Muscle cars" seem to be using a fuel pump control system on their in tank pumps.
MarkWebb said:
As you know the HP pump only runs momentarily at ign on and if the swirl pot is empty at this time the fuel rails are not primed. Most of the current american "Muscle cars" seem to be using a fuel pump control system on their in tank pumps.
As a non EFI expert I am a little confused by your statement, but I'm happy to be educated;A. Why does the HP pump only run momentarily? Usually the HP pump can be heard to run initially hard to build pressure, then when your pressure regulator relieves at it's set psi the pump runs slower, but still runs to maintain pressure doesn't it?
B. If your swirl pot is empty surely the HP pump will continue to run hard as it cannot build sufficient pressure to meet the regulator relief psi?
C. If you swirl pot is empty, then haven't you failed to acheive the goal of such a device as it's prime function is to protect the HP side from running dry? I would agree an interlock (in line pressure switch) on the low pressure side should be installed to prevent the HP pump running until the LP side is pressurized.
Julian
I think the ideal situation would be for the hp pump to sit in the (single) tank in a sump.
The pressure regulator would return to the tank and the pump would be cooled by the fuel.
The A1000 is submersible but the tanks make this solution impossible.
Everything else is a compromise.
Paul
The pressure regulator would return to the tank and the pump would be cooled by the fuel.
The A1000 is submersible but the tanks make this solution impossible.
Everything else is a compromise.
Paul
In my ecu and I believe in the GM ecu that most of us are using the fuel pump is triggered for a few seconds when the ignition is switched on. In my case it does not use a fuel pressure sensor just a timer. (not sure about the gm one) It then stops until the engine is turned over to start i.e. a rpm signal is received. Some of us who have converted a carb car to efi have the LP pump wired to run constantly when the ignition is on. Not ideal but normal in a carb car.
If the swirl pot were empty when the hp pump started the fuel rails would not be primed and also damage would be done to the hp pump by running it dry. The engine would start eventually but not at the flick of a switch as we would expect.
I believe that Aeromotive pumps are the vane type. These are particularly sensitive to running dry even briefly.
An external fuel pump is cooled by the surrounding air however the work that it does increasing the pressure of the fuel also heats the fuel quite a bit and as the fuel is being recirculated a lot when small throttle openings are in use the fuel can become very hot. Not a particular problem unless boiling occurs as it has done in my car. Cooling the pump with the fuel will only exacerbate this problem.
This has been discussed before so apologies to those who have read my feelings already. With hindsight my fuel system could have been better designed because my swirl pot is high on the bulkhead but all my pumps are lowdown. The fuel swirl pot empties when I switch the engine off even though I have non return valves in its supply pipes.
The swirl pot is designed to stop the hp pump sucking air when cornering hard etc. It should also do its job I agree when the engine is first started hence I need to move mine to a low position.
If the swirl pot were empty when the hp pump started the fuel rails would not be primed and also damage would be done to the hp pump by running it dry. The engine would start eventually but not at the flick of a switch as we would expect.
I believe that Aeromotive pumps are the vane type. These are particularly sensitive to running dry even briefly.
An external fuel pump is cooled by the surrounding air however the work that it does increasing the pressure of the fuel also heats the fuel quite a bit and as the fuel is being recirculated a lot when small throttle openings are in use the fuel can become very hot. Not a particular problem unless boiling occurs as it has done in my car. Cooling the pump with the fuel will only exacerbate this problem.
This has been discussed before so apologies to those who have read my feelings already. With hindsight my fuel system could have been better designed because my swirl pot is high on the bulkhead but all my pumps are lowdown. The fuel swirl pot empties when I switch the engine off even though I have non return valves in its supply pipes.
The swirl pot is designed to stop the hp pump sucking air when cornering hard etc. It should also do its job I agree when the engine is first started hence I need to move mine to a low position.
Edited by MarkWebb on Tuesday 17th January 23:18
Edited by MarkWebb on Tuesday 17th January 23:21
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