Build or buy ...?
Discussion
After cancelling order on a Noble GTO 3R last year (job change) I'm back on the hunt for a truly focused car now and the GTR has stolen me from Noble.
Before plunging into GTR world, I'd appreciate some advice on a couple of things. First, I'm nervous about building the car - how big a job is it for a novice (but genrally very handy) builder with girlfriend and full-time job? Are there people out there who will do a high-quality build for me at well below factory costs? Hard to decide as I'd like to learn from doing the bild. Also, my garage is double length but standard width at 3.1m wide - is this wide enough?
How safe is the GTR in terms of crash strength and overal chassis integrity? I'm not looking for a Volvo, but I've been put off other kit cars by unconvincing protection.
Lastly on the engine. I'm after a high-spec unit from American Speed, but I don't know what the different options do for the way the car drives. I'd like something quite snappy and rev-happy but not if there's a big price in torque. So I guess I'm looking at either the 640bhp 377ci dry-sump unit or the bigger 427ci at 600hp with more low-down torque. Is there likely to be a big difference in drivability between the two? Is the 427ci going to be slower to pick up revs?
And what kind of engine life can I expect if I go for a full-on 640bhp normally aspirated 377ci?
Thanks,
Dave
Before plunging into GTR world, I'd appreciate some advice on a couple of things. First, I'm nervous about building the car - how big a job is it for a novice (but genrally very handy) builder with girlfriend and full-time job? Are there people out there who will do a high-quality build for me at well below factory costs? Hard to decide as I'd like to learn from doing the bild. Also, my garage is double length but standard width at 3.1m wide - is this wide enough?
How safe is the GTR in terms of crash strength and overal chassis integrity? I'm not looking for a Volvo, but I've been put off other kit cars by unconvincing protection.
Lastly on the engine. I'm after a high-spec unit from American Speed, but I don't know what the different options do for the way the car drives. I'd like something quite snappy and rev-happy but not if there's a big price in torque. So I guess I'm looking at either the 640bhp 377ci dry-sump unit or the bigger 427ci at 600hp with more low-down torque. Is there likely to be a big difference in drivability between the two? Is the 427ci going to be slower to pick up revs?
And what kind of engine life can I expect if I go for a full-on 640bhp normally aspirated 377ci?
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I too went through the same thought process as you but finally decided to build my own so I get the exact spec I want for my money.
As for engines, I'm also looking at a British company called British American engines www.britishamericanengines.co.uk
They are currently buildina a SBC running 427cu I beleive (will find out the spec tomorrow).
Michael
www.ultima-gtr.co.uk
I too went through the same thought process as you but finally decided to build my own so I get the exact spec I want for my money.
As for engines, I'm also looking at a British company called British American engines www.britishamericanengines.co.uk
They are currently buildina a SBC running 427cu I beleive (will find out the spec tomorrow).
Michael
www.ultima-gtr.co.uk
The Ultima is a very well engineered car so mechanically is easy to put together. Your skills will need to be more akin to DIY than motor mechanic.
Unlike some other kit cars there is no welding or other fabrication required apart from fitting, filing and riveting the ali chassis skins. You will need to trim some panels for door shut lines etc but again no fibreglass lay-up or fibreglass bonding to the chassis.
You can do it yourself if you really want to and the sense of achievement at the end is well worth the effort.
If you want one built go to the factory. They build a car with parts they buy at cost then add their profit. Anybody else will have to buy the bits from the factory who will have added profit to those prices then your builder will want his profit as well.
If you build it yourself use a dolly on castors. That way you can push it over to one wall while you work on one side.
Check this out if you have doubts about the strength in a crash. Look closely and you will see the roll cage is completely intact and, to my eye, still the right shape.
For the engine don’t get bogged down in the AS price list. When your ready give them a call and talk through what you want from your engine and they will spec it for you. The chevy engine in almost any state of tune has way more torque than you want in an Ultima. When the Americans talk about torque being everything its because they are trying to shift 2 ½ tons of metal. What you want to aim for is higher revs as recently and comprehensively demonstrated by the Factory in Gareths (G man) car with the 0-100-0 record pulling nearly 8000 revs. You don’t need torque with that in front of a 5 or 6 speed ‘box.
The high power, high rev engine is not going to last as long as a big lazy 427 but by the time one does wear out you will probably be looking for your next challenge anyways.
Go get yourself a Factory test fright it will seal the deal and you will be as hooked as the rest of us.
If you have looked back through the Ultima posts you should already have realised that you will not be alone in this build. I and a dozen more will be here to help answer your questions. Remember, the only dumb question is the one you don’t have the balls to ask. ( change the record).
Steve
Unlike some other kit cars there is no welding or other fabrication required apart from fitting, filing and riveting the ali chassis skins. You will need to trim some panels for door shut lines etc but again no fibreglass lay-up or fibreglass bonding to the chassis.
You can do it yourself if you really want to and the sense of achievement at the end is well worth the effort.
If you want one built go to the factory. They build a car with parts they buy at cost then add their profit. Anybody else will have to buy the bits from the factory who will have added profit to those prices then your builder will want his profit as well.
If you build it yourself use a dolly on castors. That way you can push it over to one wall while you work on one side.
Check this out if you have doubts about the strength in a crash. Look closely and you will see the roll cage is completely intact and, to my eye, still the right shape.
For the engine don’t get bogged down in the AS price list. When your ready give them a call and talk through what you want from your engine and they will spec it for you. The chevy engine in almost any state of tune has way more torque than you want in an Ultima. When the Americans talk about torque being everything its because they are trying to shift 2 ½ tons of metal. What you want to aim for is higher revs as recently and comprehensively demonstrated by the Factory in Gareths (G man) car with the 0-100-0 record pulling nearly 8000 revs. You don’t need torque with that in front of a 5 or 6 speed ‘box.
The high power, high rev engine is not going to last as long as a big lazy 427 but by the time one does wear out you will probably be looking for your next challenge anyways.
Go get yourself a Factory test fright it will seal the deal and you will be as hooked as the rest of us.
If you have looked back through the Ultima posts you should already have realised that you will not be alone in this build. I and a dozen more will be here to help answer your questions. Remember, the only dumb question is the one you don’t have the balls to ask. ( change the record).
Steve
If I had it to do over again I would have bought the car as a rolling chassis with the option of a stack dash installed. I have a job that eats time and a family. I also have other cars that are really fun to drive and a short ride often becomes a 4 hour blast in the mountains.
The factory can really speed up your build if you want for reasonable prices. I paid them about 1000.00USD to fit all of the alloy panels to the frame, including the luggage containers and the radiator skins. They also fitted the body and trimmed the openings and mold lines for a very reasonable price. I would bet that they would happily fit the mirrors and rear wing (perfectly).
RE the motor: I feel like I wasted lots-o-cash on a motor that isn't needed for such a light weight car (377 wet sump). Make the motor mild and you will be happy. You won't be setting world records but you will be listening to a nice sounding exhaust instead of 16 solid roller lifters tapping like mad behind your head. Mack's suggestion of EFI makes a lot of sense. If you get a really high output motor and stand behind it at idle you will need to get a mask to prevent CO poisoning. The high overlap cam that makes lots of power allows buckets of unburned fuel out the pipes at low revs.
It sounds like your ready to spend some money, if you want an alloy block make sure that you don't get a block made by Dart unless you want a long stroke motor. The stock Chevrolet oil pan does not fit it and there are several other changes that will delay your build. I think Rodeck makes a very nice alloy block that will work. Get hydraulic roller lifters not solid lifters.
One of the reasons I bought the kit was that I thought it would be cheaper....it isn't. If I had spent as much time at work as spent building this car I could have had an F50. I'm glad I did it but it takes a great deal of time to do right.
ken
The factory can really speed up your build if you want for reasonable prices. I paid them about 1000.00USD to fit all of the alloy panels to the frame, including the luggage containers and the radiator skins. They also fitted the body and trimmed the openings and mold lines for a very reasonable price. I would bet that they would happily fit the mirrors and rear wing (perfectly).
RE the motor: I feel like I wasted lots-o-cash on a motor that isn't needed for such a light weight car (377 wet sump). Make the motor mild and you will be happy. You won't be setting world records but you will be listening to a nice sounding exhaust instead of 16 solid roller lifters tapping like mad behind your head. Mack's suggestion of EFI makes a lot of sense. If you get a really high output motor and stand behind it at idle you will need to get a mask to prevent CO poisoning. The high overlap cam that makes lots of power allows buckets of unburned fuel out the pipes at low revs.
It sounds like your ready to spend some money, if you want an alloy block make sure that you don't get a block made by Dart unless you want a long stroke motor. The stock Chevrolet oil pan does not fit it and there are several other changes that will delay your build. I think Rodeck makes a very nice alloy block that will work. Get hydraulic roller lifters not solid lifters.
One of the reasons I bought the kit was that I thought it would be cheaper....it isn't. If I had spent as much time at work as spent building this car I could have had an F50. I'm glad I did it but it takes a great deal of time to do right.
ken
Just my opinion:
I would go for a factory build car, as I did. Build quality from the factory is very good (no chance to achieve the same if you build just one car, there is always some try and error...) and I also found the price for the build reasonable. But: Take your time to discuss specs and possible upgrades. If I would do it again I would read all old threads on this forum and try to discuss with the factory all options in detail. I spent a year after I bought the car to upgrade piece by piece components to my liking and this was not only annoying but also much more expensive. For example, exhaust coating or wrapping and upgrade of the cooler fans is a must, especially with a high output motor...
Concerning the motor:
You must be aware that all Small Blocks are old design and will never work as a modern engine. When GM designed that engine in the fiftees of last century it had just around 150 HP. And the same design gives today up to 600 HP or more. This comes at a price: it does not idle well (changes with the weather and temperature), poisons the environment and yourself, overheats very easily, burns litres of oil, fuel economy is zero, and it lasts only for several thousands of miles before you need a re-build of some kind (especially if you rev it). On the upside it is cheap horsepower and a lot of fun, beautiful sound, and you can buy spareparts at very reasonable cost.
EFI will not really help because the problem is the engine design: if you want big horsepower you need big heads, big valves, hot cam and EFI will not cure the problems which come with this design.
For me there are 2 options, either going for a modern Corvette aluminium engine with complete motor management and reasonable power (LT1, LS6,...), this will not only reduce weight of the car but also make it more usable as a daily driver whilst offering still excellent performance. Or go for a high revving, high output SB monster engine (for example from AS) with double pumper carb. In the second case it is not so important from where you buy it (personally I can recommend AS) but to select only the best components. Especially crankshaft, camshaft, valvetrain, pistons, heads, distributor, alternator, belts (serpentine pulleys!) should be the best you can get, don´t try to save money here!
As I said, just my opinion. Anyway, I hope you will decide for an Ultima, I would do it again!
Peter
I would go for a factory build car, as I did. Build quality from the factory is very good (no chance to achieve the same if you build just one car, there is always some try and error...) and I also found the price for the build reasonable. But: Take your time to discuss specs and possible upgrades. If I would do it again I would read all old threads on this forum and try to discuss with the factory all options in detail. I spent a year after I bought the car to upgrade piece by piece components to my liking and this was not only annoying but also much more expensive. For example, exhaust coating or wrapping and upgrade of the cooler fans is a must, especially with a high output motor...
Concerning the motor:
You must be aware that all Small Blocks are old design and will never work as a modern engine. When GM designed that engine in the fiftees of last century it had just around 150 HP. And the same design gives today up to 600 HP or more. This comes at a price: it does not idle well (changes with the weather and temperature), poisons the environment and yourself, overheats very easily, burns litres of oil, fuel economy is zero, and it lasts only for several thousands of miles before you need a re-build of some kind (especially if you rev it). On the upside it is cheap horsepower and a lot of fun, beautiful sound, and you can buy spareparts at very reasonable cost.
EFI will not really help because the problem is the engine design: if you want big horsepower you need big heads, big valves, hot cam and EFI will not cure the problems which come with this design.
For me there are 2 options, either going for a modern Corvette aluminium engine with complete motor management and reasonable power (LT1, LS6,...), this will not only reduce weight of the car but also make it more usable as a daily driver whilst offering still excellent performance. Or go for a high revving, high output SB monster engine (for example from AS) with double pumper carb. In the second case it is not so important from where you buy it (personally I can recommend AS) but to select only the best components. Especially crankshaft, camshaft, valvetrain, pistons, heads, distributor, alternator, belts (serpentine pulleys!) should be the best you can get, don´t try to save money here!
As I said, just my opinion. Anyway, I hope you will decide for an Ultima, I would do it again!
Peter
Nigel(detail) Dean built his Ultima in a series of six or seven interesting articles in Which Kit? at the beginning of the year.
I am sure Adam Wilkins on the PH Kit car forum would be able to sort you out with all the back issues...
If not, I have them all, and would be pleased to loan them to you to read for a couple of weeks if you cover my postage costs......
HTH.
I am sure Adam Wilkins on the PH Kit car forum would be able to sort you out with all the back issues...
If not, I have them all, and would be pleased to loan them to you to read for a couple of weeks if you cover my postage costs......
HTH.
I totally agree with ultimacz and would have the car factory built. The quality is second to none, but if I were to do it again, I would educate myself on the engine side and spec my desires with AS in the areas suggested by ultimacz.
I would sell you mine only so I could personally press the body supplier to do me a Kawasaki Green gell coat, something I will do when my business requires less attention. The 377 would also be my choice.
Do not go cheap. Get all the higher end options listed, including the car cover . I have owned the GTR (factorz built LHD) for a year now and just last evening marvelled at it as the sun went down before covering it with the factory supplied cover. Kawasaki Green, here I come again!
I would sell you mine only so I could personally press the body supplier to do me a Kawasaki Green gell coat, something I will do when my business requires less attention. The 377 would also be my choice.
Do not go cheap. Get all the higher end options listed, including the car cover . I have owned the GTR (factorz built LHD) for a year now and just last evening marvelled at it as the sun went down before covering it with the factory supplied cover. Kawasaki Green, here I come again!
some good points. My view is that if you build it (correctly) you have a bit of your own blood sweat and tears included... makes for great "I built that" moments.. which are unique. Anyone can buy one, not to say there is anything wrong with that... I bought my "day-to-day" car afterall. Only thing I would say is if you build it you tend to put up with the little issues and bits needing tweeking and fixing etc, a factory car you may expect to be perfect. I dont think an Ultima will ever be like a "jap/german stamped out like a million others" type car which will never go wrong. It will need a bit of respect and understanding!
Nor for the shy types! If you want something RARE, the Ultima is it. EG: At Lemans the hotel I was in this year had 3 Red F40's!...... but only one ultima...!
Nor for the shy types! If you want something RARE, the Ultima is it. EG: At Lemans the hotel I was in this year had 3 Red F40's!...... but only one ultima...!
I'm building my own. Its the first time I have built a car, and although I have some mechanical knowledge I am a long way from being a mechanic. I can echo Steve's comment that it isn't particularly difficult (least ways not so far), but it is taking a lot of time. I think it depends on what you want. For me, I really wanted to build a car. I wanted something that would be great to drive, look good, was not a copy of something else, was well engineered and was supported by a helpful and enthusiastic manufacturer. I have been very happy with the decision - the build is a complete antidote to work, and since I'm not in a major hurry I can fit it around family commitments (actually, the kids are in more of a hurry than I am - they keep asking when I will be picking them up from school in it). The factory and people on here have been really helpful in answering any questions I've had (often I haven't needed to ask because someone else already has). The various build sites are also well worth reading, and I certainly owe Stig the odd beer!
If you visit the factory it is worth going out in a can-am as well as a GTR before placing an order. The two cars are a very different experience. Be warned though, I turned up at the factory expecting to spend the next few weeks deciding whether or not this would be a sensible way to spend lots of hard-earned cash. After Ted's test drives, 'sensible' dropped out of the equation and was replaced with the minor problem of explaining the sudden increase in our mortgage.
If you visit the factory it is worth going out in a can-am as well as a GTR before placing an order. The two cars are a very different experience. Be warned though, I turned up at the factory expecting to spend the next few weeks deciding whether or not this would be a sensible way to spend lots of hard-earned cash. After Ted's test drives, 'sensible' dropped out of the equation and was replaced with the minor problem of explaining the sudden increase in our mortgage.
daveyc said:
After cancelling order on a Noble GTO 3R last year (job change) I'm back on the hunt for a truly focused car now and the GTR has stolen me from Noble.
Before plunging into GTR world, I'd appreciate some advice on a couple of things. First, I'm nervous about building the car - how big a job is it for a novice (but genrally very handy) builder with girlfriend and full-time job? Are there people out there who will do a high-quality build for me at well below factory costs? Hard to decide as I'd like to learn from doing the bild. Also, my garage is double length but standard width at 3.1m wide - is this wide enough?
>>> Should not be a problem in the garage, most of us did not have a clue when we started, the factory is very useful to do the bits you did not want to do ie fit body
How safe is the GTR in terms of crash strength and overal chassis integrity? I'm not looking for a Volvo, but I've been put off other kit cars by unconvincing protection.
>>> You can have a FIA cage in it, which must comply to the safety regs, also a few have had major incidents in Ultima's ( full driver error ) and walked away
Lastly on the engine. I'm after a high-spec unit from American Speed, but I don't know what the different options do for the way the car drives. I'd like something quite snappy and rev-happy but not if there's a big price in torque. So I guess I'm looking at either the 640bhp 377ci dry-sump unit or the bigger 427ci at 600hp with more low-down torque. Is there likely to be a big difference in drivability between the two? Is the 427ci going to be slower to pick up revs?
>>> A 640 bhp 377ci has over 600 ft lbs of torque just up around 4000 rpm my car is faster than 99.9 % of the cars on the road using 0-5000 rpm between 5000-7600 rpm only the star ship enterprise will keep up, just ..
And what kind of engine life can I expect if I go for a full-on 640bhp normally aspirated 377ci?
>>> I have done 2 years 7500 miles so far, drag raced, 200 mph, and always driven home at the end of the day
Thanks,
Dave
I have a 377 ci you are welcome to a ride, I will try to impress ...
Folks,
Big thanks for all your replies - really appreciate all the advice. Steve, you've certainly put my mind at rest on the safety/strengh issue - incredible!
Yep, I'll risk immediate loss of all reason and go have a test ride at the factory - has to be done.
As for build, it looks like a compromise is best for me - get a rolling chassis etc and I still get most of the pleasure of self-build but save bit of time.
Engine story sounds fine - given the 640bhp is circa £11k, I'll not be too upset if it has to retire after 18 months. And I know I like a hard-edged engine, rather than lazy, so I'll take the hit and go high-revving, shorter life.
Thanks all & I look forward to talking about build
Dave
Big thanks for all your replies - really appreciate all the advice. Steve, you've certainly put my mind at rest on the safety/strengh issue - incredible!
Yep, I'll risk immediate loss of all reason and go have a test ride at the factory - has to be done.
As for build, it looks like a compromise is best for me - get a rolling chassis etc and I still get most of the pleasure of self-build but save bit of time.
Engine story sounds fine - given the 640bhp is circa £11k, I'll not be too upset if it has to retire after 18 months. And I know I like a hard-edged engine, rather than lazy, so I'll take the hit and go high-revving, shorter life.
Thanks all & I look forward to talking about build
Dave
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