1/8" skin pins

[UltimaCH]

Hi fellow Ultima maniacs,
My first build question and certainly not the last, so bare with me!
After the Xmas festivities and before upcome New Year feast and drink, I wanted to get ready to look at getting my alloy panels ready for fitting . I havn't opened the 38 or so boxes I have stored in my workshop, and as the Factory is closed until next week, can someone tell me if some skin pins are included in the kit, or do I need to go and get some from my local hardware store?

[Storer]

There should be a few skin pins in with the rivets. However, you will probably need a few more to keep things in place firmly.


Paul

[Steve_D]

Also worth considering is an air riveter and 3.2mm stubby drills these are 50mm long and have only 15mm of flute so are much stronger than standard drill bits (Wurth part number 0635 32).
The factory supply Wurth PU sealant but I suspect you will need more than supplied due to applying more than you really need and the fact that it may go off if you take time over your build.

Steve

[UltimaCH]

Thanks for the replies Paul and Steve.
OK will go and dig out the box containing the rivets and check for the skin pins. Good idea that I get a couple more.
I already purchased and have an air riveter and angle drill (Sealey) in my tool kit. I'll get the drill bits from my hardware store with whom I checked and they have them available with a short shaft and a drill head at each end. My aim is to get all the panels cut and prepared before starting the riveting. Hopefully the sealant should be enough, otherwise I'll get a spare handy.
Daniel

Edited: completed post

Edited by UltimaCH on Monday 31st December 13:41

[pilbeam_mp62]

I bought Cleco pins and special pliers to insert them - much easier than the screw pins that the factory supply.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Vehicle-Parts-Accessorie...


Regards

[drunyon]

I made a drill jig for the panels that maybe helpful. The jig drills #40 pilot holes (2.4892 mm). The jig is not universal because of the rivet pattern and pitch but should help speed up the process.

[deadscoob]

I bought an adjustable rivet spacer, similar to this:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivs...

Brilliant tool to have, saves a lot of time measuring IMO

[738 driver]

Worth using blind/sealed rivets too if the kit supplied ones are still basic hollow type.
Cheap and more ingress resistant.

[UltimaCH]

Yes I saw that nifty tool some time back and it got me thinking but I completely forgot about it. In the interrim, I made 2 rivet jigs: 1 x 1m long and a second shorter one for smaller pieces and panels

[UltimaCH]

738 driver said:

Worth using blind/sealed rivets too if the kit supplied ones are still basic hollow type.
Cheap and more ingress resistant.

Hmmm, are you thinking of possible humidity issues and subsequent corrosion problems?

[ROWDYRENAULT]

How rivet lines are spaced and thier straightness has alot to do with the eye appeal of the finished tub. Particularly if you leave a lot of the lines exposed in a minimalist style interior, which I believe is a great look for the car. If you really want to set the interior off try anodizing the rivets red, blue or black before you start, of course if you commit to this then the lines need to be right. The Spacing tool someone mentioned is a good idea or you can use a compass. If you use the compass you start with it set at the spacing you desire swing the compass from end to end of the line and then make small adjustments in the throw of the comapss until you arrive exactly at the end point. I left the square weave carpet in my GTRs interior and inch short of all the rivet lines. the carpet is in a dark grey and black mix that with the inch of polished alloy and the rivets really looks good. I didn't use the anodizing trick on mine because I bought a chassis that the factory had in stock that was already paneled. I will also add that the cost of the factory doing this part of the build is not a bad idea. remember they do this every day and thier work in this regard was spot on. Happy new year to everyone. Lee

[356Speedster]

I agree with the factory on this..... I had no issues with the std skin pins and also found 10 to be plenty to do any of the panels

[UltimaCH]

Thanks everyone for the replies and tips. The problem is solved and guess I need to do some digging around in my boxes to find the pins. If 10 are supplied, I guess that's ample to play around with

[Steve_D]

drunyon said:

I made a drill jig for the panels that maybe helpful. The jig drills #40 pilot holes (2.4892 mm). The jig is not universal because of the rivet pattern and pitch but should help speed up the process.

Are you going to drill both skin and chassis with the pilot?

I would not recommend this. If you drill skin and chassis together with finished drill size most of the swarf will come out of the hole. If you drill both with a pilot then open up to full size swarf can now escape down the hole into the chassis.

A word of warning also if you are planning to pre-drill the skin before placing on chassis and drilling through. You carefully mark out and drill a line of holes only to find that once placed on the chassis the end holes can neither be drilled or riveted due to other parts of the chassis/body being in the way.

Steve

[drunyon]

[quote=Steve_D]


I would not recommend this. If you drill skin and chassis together with finished drill size most of the swarf will come out of the hole. If you drill both with a pilot then open up to full size swarf can now escape down the hole into the chassis.

Interesting thought on the excess “swarf” (I had to google swarf) in the tubing if you use a two step drilling process Vs one step.
My thought was to use a .098 pilot drill jig thru panel and chassis (clamped together) then final ream to .125 with panel & tubing clecoed together. This process performs two important functions. One, by using a drill jig you insure the drill bit is 90 degrees to the work surface, thus a straight rivet installation. And two, by reaming to final size you insure the hole is the correct size and not out of round. One of the biggest problems with blind fastener failure is fretting. The hole size is to big (or out-of-round) for the rivet diameter causing the rivet to vibrate in the hole and work loose.
That said, the panels are probably a non-structural component of the chassis design so I’m guessing all the rivets could fail without any issues. However, I like a tight fit.
Steve, do you have any empirical data on the swarf issue? I would be interested as I don’t want extra drill shavings floating around inside my frame collecting moisture.

Cheers

don

PS: I can't figure out the boxed quote thing!

Edited by drunyon on Thursday 3rd January 17:12

[Steve_D]

drunyon said:

.....
Steve, do you have any empirical data on the swarf issue? I would be interested as I don’t want extra drill shavings floating around inside my frame collecting moisture....

No data as such just logic that drilling the hole in one hit almost all the swarf has to come out of the top of the hole right up until the drill breaks through. When you open out a pilot hole much of the swarf can drop down the pilot.

Whilst a drill jig can be designed to hold the drill square I don't believe it will significantly improve the roundness of the hole unless it is very firmly clamped in place.

If done properly, with all surfaces correctly cleaned, I believe the bonding is providing more 'structure' than the rivets.

I think you will find a proper drill jig will be a hindrance for most of the job apart from perhaps the under skin where there is a large flat area to work. The interior skins involve tight spaces and working almost upside down. A strip of masking tape, a ruler, and a straight edge is all that's required.

Steve

[Steve_D]

Just here^^^^ is a 'Quote' button.
If you hit that it will start your reply with what I said.
If what I said included a quote from someone else then hit the 'Quote all' button.

drunyon said:

....PS: I can't figure out the boxed quote thing!...

Steve

[drunyon]

[quote=Steve_D]

No data as such just logic that drilling the hole in one hit almost all the swarf has to come out of the top of the hole right up until the drill breaks through. When you open out a pilot hole much of the swarf can drop down the pilot.

Thanks for the quote tip but apparently I'm untrainable?
I'm thinking if you have a well clamped drill jig, drilling one hole or two the difference in metal shavings is minimal if at all. I'd rather have a true hole the right size than a possible minimal amount of extra swarf. As I have never built an Ultima I did not know the panels were bonded which makes the rivets clamps during adhesive cure, thanks for the heads up. An adhesive bonded joint is stronger than a riveted joint. I also plan on installing all the rivets wet ( mil spec primer) to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion. I don't know the spec of the rivets the factory provides but I'll be using NAS1738.
I know this is all minor stuff in the big scheme of things but that's what makes building hot rods fun.
thanks for the info & input

don

[Life Saab Itch]

If you do want more skin pins, LAS aero are very good.to.deal with.

I don't see any advantage to the cleco system. you need an extra tool to put them on, whereas the normal skin pins are a one handed operation.

[738 driver]

Was lucky, a local firm AET stocks them... about 50pence each from memory and cheaper in bulk . I only purchased additional to check all panel fit/alignment before any hard rivetting (just to avoid drilling out and swarf laden chassis tubes) .. Worked out well as things like reliefs for seat belt spacers, welds, lap/corner joints etc could be mocked up and dealt with neatly before final fixing... although it'll all be covered for me it could later be exposed and polished with confidence.

There used to be a rivet made from Monel for dissimilar metal jointing although in this case its unlikely to affect too much .... keeping the bare steel box section air/ingress tight is the real issue (especially if you live in the damp UK)

G luck.

Edited by 738 driver on Saturday 5th January 00:01