engine question

[methodwares]

thinking of building one of these, as its a pretty sick car, i was thinking of making it just a bit more 'wrong'. i'd like to use a chevy gen 3 block because of the valve configuration, does anyone know if it will bolt up to the standard kit supplied by ultima?

also how much room is in the front of the engine? need a bit to fit a procharger.

thanks

[davefiddes]

Jeff Schartz and Mark Koch have fitted an LS6 to a GTR and tubo LS1 to a Can-Am respectively so it can be done. I think there are a couple of GTRs in Oz that use the LS1/LS6 engine too.

It's a non-standard engine so you might have a problem with:
- gearbox adapter plate. If Ultima can't supply then you'll have to go to Kennedy Engineered Products in the US for it.
- exhaust headers. Don't know if Ultima make them for the LS1/LS6 engine yet. There are places in the US or UK that can make you an exhaust system to fit.
- engine mounts. You'll need adapter plates to allow the engine to be mounted using standard Gen I SBC mounting points. Think these are just a buy & fit part.

I see from your profile that you are based in the UK...this gives you a big problem. Most Ultimas are fitted with pre-1975 block based engines. This is so we can pass the emissions requirements with our yukky over-rich carbs! If you fit essentially a brand new engine (post Aug 1995) you will have to pass current emissions tests....which means running with cats (and big ones too given the cubic capacity off the engine). You'll need a custom exhaust system for this and have an interesting time packaging the cats and silencers in such a way that stops the rear bodywork from melting down. Not impossible (It's been done on at least one car in Oz) but quite hard work.

On the plus side the newer Chevys are quite a bit lighter, seem to be more reliable bhp-for-bhp compared to the Gen I, less prone to leaks and give better fuel consuption.

[BogBeast]

IIRC Procharger installations tend to be high mounted. I don't think there would be enough room in-between the firewall and the front of valve covers/manifold. Would need to 'mock' up to confirm

It maybe possible to relocate the ProCharger further down in place of the alt (would be oriented at a different angle, which may or may not be a problem)

March do a kit to relocate the alt to the other side of the engine but this may necessitate an electric water pump..

Was planning on something similar myself when I get my FI up and going…

[mkoch1]

methodwares said:

thinking of building one of these, as its a pretty sick car, i was thinking of making it just a bit more 'wrong'. i'd like to use a chevy gen 3 block because of the valve configuration, does anyone know if it will bolt up to the standard kit supplied by ultima? also how much room is in the front of the engine? need a bit to fit a procharger. thanks

I have a single turbo LS1 in my car. Only real issues are the exhuast and shifter linkage. Exhuast will have to be custom made and the shifter linkage has to be routed around the engine.

Check out my site for more info www.markkoch.net/canamMain.asp

mark

[methodwares]

hi,

thanks for the replies. i know i'll need custom headers made. i didn't know about the shift linkage, but then i've read there is a cable version. i was looking at a turbo, but that is some serious exhaust work. using a procharger, i was kinda expecting to mount it a bit to the side, though i'll need to get some tricky piping done to route it to a charge cooler and then to the intake. there is a kit that allows reverse mounting of the charger to allow it to run off the standard drive belt...

as far as running cats go, i'm talking to some guys about using lpg (just to be different, but the higher octane keeps detonation down) as the exhaust should be cleaner.

this thing is still in the early planning stages, so i'm sure everything will change.

thanks

[davefiddes]

The shift linkage problem that Mark talks about is only an issue with centre rod linkage gearshifts. Most Ultimas use the sill mounted rod linkage which shouldn't need to be modified. Nice things have been said about the Getrag box with it's centre mounted shift mechanism (you can even get a sequential shifter).

[htsd]

methodwares said:

as far as running cats go, i'm talking to some guys about using lpg (just to be different

Have fun fitting an LPG bottle into an Ultima. Seriously, there is no room for one and I doubt any owner could prove otherwise- without removing the passenger seat of course!!! Not to mention the extravagant weight of the system over a petrol-fuelled car.

[Supersante]

Took my HSV to Linden Special Vehicles (01933 670980)for a service and saw they are building an Ultima with a 6.3 litre LS 1 engine.Mark is the man to contact regarding engine,installation, and ancillary pieces

davefiddes said:

Jeff Schartz and Mark Koch have fitted an LS6 to a GTR and tubo LS1 to a Can-Am respectively so it can be done. I think there are a couple of GTRs in Oz that use the LS1/LS6 engine too. It's a non-standard engine so you might have a problem with: - gearbox adapter plate. If Ultima can't supply then you'll have to go to Kennedy Engineered Products in the US for it. - exhaust headers. Don't know if Ultima make them for the LS1/LS6 engine yet. There are places in the US or UK that can make you an exhaust system to fit. - engine mounts. You'll need adapter plates to allow the engine to be mounted using standard Gen I SBC mounting points. Think these are just a buy & fit part. I see from your profile that you are based in the UK...this gives you a big problem. Most Ultimas are fitted with pre-1975 block based engines. This is so we can pass the emissions requirements with our yukky over-rich carbs! If you fit essentially a brand new engine (post Aug 1995) you will have to pass current emissions tests....which means running with cats (and big ones too given the cubic capacity off the engine). You'll need a custom exhaust system for this and have an interesting time packaging the cats and silencers in such a way that stops the rear bodywork from melting down. Not impossible (It's been done on at least one car in Oz) but quite hard work. On the plus side the newer Chevys are quite a bit lighter, seem to be more reliable bhp-for-bhp compared to the Gen I, less prone to leaks and give better fuel consuption.

[Boosted Ls1]

I'm pretty sure packing an ls1 into an ultima won't be to difficult. As for the cats, I'm not sure the UK car will need to have them if the engine is running clean or in a low production vehicle.

[chuntington101]

very nice engine, would be even better if you could mount a procharger the "wrong way around to reduce the space needed up front. guys in the US are running 800bhp on some of these engines.

one thing i have yet to see is anyone swinging the stock (or even LS6) mani around. this would let anyone turboing or charging to have an easier time fitting it all in. anyone have any ideas?

i think spectrum 5 racing have some heads and exhausts for the GTR with an LS1/6 fitten. as for the cat thing, i would throw a few bears at your local back street MOT place abd then not worry to much about passing! or if you have ECU then run like 2k rpm limit, run nice high octane fuel and lean the whole thing out as much as poss. may just get you though!

thanks Chris.

[Boosted Ls1]

chuntington101 said:

one thing i have yet to see is anyone swinging the stock (or even LS6) mani around. this would let anyone turboing or charging to have an easier time fitting it all in. anyone have any ideas? thanks Chris.

Sure thats been done before. I think Jeff's LS equipped Ultima has the manifold fitted to face the other way Look for J Schwartz in the profiles for some pics.

Boosted

[G Man]

methodwares said:

thinking of building one of these, as its a pretty sick car, i was thinking of making it just a bit more 'wrong'. i'd like to use a chevy gen 3 block because of the valve configuration, does anyone know if it will bolt up to the standard kit supplied by ultima? also how much room is in the front of the engine? need a bit to fit a procharger. thanks

David Fiddles has given you the correct advice re age of block V cats.

If you want better value angles run a chapman/edelbrock 18 degree or 15 degree head. You won't need turbos ....

[chuntington101]

thanks Boosted LS1!

Chris.

[skid]

chuntington101 said:

very nice engine, would be even better if you could mount a procharger the "wrong way around to reduce the space needed up front. guys in the US are running 800bhp on some of these engines. thanks Chris.

I looked at the procharger for something else and asked the factory a few questions.

You can spec a reversed impeller (so it can run back to front). You would need to fabricate a bracket but basically you can mount it whereever you have the space.

Mark

[skid]

For something different (and I know the VW V10 TDi has been suggested) there's always the VAG group W12????

Now that would be something different, beautiful and challenging. I know it would need cats, but at modern 'saloon' levels its circa 420 bhp, and I'm sure there's a German tuning co. doing satanic things to them at this very moment. It could be a 500bhp 500 ft/Ib screamer and probably ideally suited to the lightweight track style car that is the Ultima.

Plus I would guess it's fairly small and leightweight and high revving and would allow for some juggling of the position (bell housing construction permitting) for optimum location.

Just my musings on the matter.

Mark

[Boosted Ls1]

skid said:

there's always the VAG group W12???? Mark

This is a jewel of an engine and Bentley have done well with it. However, one of it's claims to fame is that it has the narrowest big end shells going for its configuration. I've seen them and they are only about 1cm across so I don't think there's a lot of extra load potential but that's a guess!

[chuntington101]

has anyone looked into the RS6s V8 twin turbo? i have read about the MTM car that was running a reliable 550bhp from it, and im sure there is bags more room for power with the right set up. i have read about the V6 running similar levels, so with 2 more cylinders who knows? anyone know if it will fit, or how much these units cost? then there is the 'box! why cant there be a simple answer?

Thanks Chris.

[steve_D]

chuntington101 said:

has anyone looked into the RS6s V8 twin turbo? i have read about the MTM car that was running a reliable 550bhp from it, and im sure there is bags more room for power with the right set up. i have read about the V6 running similar levels, so with 2 more cylinders who knows? anyone know if it will fit, or how much these units cost? then there is the 'box! why cant there be a simple answer? Thanks Chris.

There is, it's called a Chevy Small Block.

Steve

[chuntington101]

thanks Steve. anyway, just to add some more fuel to the fire has anyone any info on the Benlty V8 twin turbo used in the arnage T? produces loads of torque, and if the rev range could be exstended a bit, could produce some sizable power to. do Bent just use a production unit (i.e. ford) or is it custome?

then there is the ford 4.6ltr quad cam as used in the koenigsegg CCR. from what i have seen this is a very good unit. Koenigsegg get 800bhp and 678lds ft out of it. this is a highly modded engine though, and i think the only thing still ford is the block. but autocraft had a nice version on their stand at the Autosports show this year. that twin turbo unit had 1100bhp and around 1200lds ft! be nice in the back of an ultima!

thanks Chris.

[htny]

That Bentley motor debuted in 1982 in current aluminium form, in the Mulsanne. It is the size of a BBC, weighs half a tonne, runs hot drinks oil and redlines well south of 5000rpm. And is one of my favorite motors, for a bentley. It's almost like what you'd expect from a train, but wouldn;t work in an ultima.

SVT Tweaked Ford Modulars (Cobra) are in a lot of cars, deTomaso Mangusta (the current one), Panoz, it's a cheap way to get a smooth, cammy, high revving motor into your composite bodied low volume sports car. There's also a 5.4 liter Cobra R motor from ford (it's actually iron truck block/aluminium svt heads)and all sorts of options for motors from Saleen with warranties (!). If you build one with forged everything, all bore, 4 valves and titanium or forged rods/springs etc., you could have a real screamer on your hands, also takes forced induction well.

I myself am increasingly coming around to viewing the ultima more as a Cobra than a McLaren, and thinking go with the "low tech" motor. Or maybe, the real answer for the US is a hopped up sbc w/32v heads or an LS1/LS6, bored and sleeved with forged bits and a nice top end, a happy medium even.