Fuel injection...
Discussion
Guys,
whilst I am very pleased with my car, the power delivery is very brutal and "on/off".
I am supposing that this is the Holley, due to it being a somewhat agricultural bit of kit it either dumps huge amounts of fuel in or it er...doesn't.
On the road I'm not too worried about this but it does become a bit of a pain whilst trying to feather the throttle mid-bend on a track
So for a bit more control I'm thinking of fitting a fuel injection kit of some sort.
First question, any suggestions as to which kit to use? (my engine's the 400bhp 383 AS)
Second, any pitfalls/difficulties in doing this on a CanAm?
Thirdly, what sort of power gains could I expect (got to be another reason for doing it
)
The other thing I'm thiking of doing instead is buying a new, higher output engine with EFI and swapping it, is there much of a market for a second-hand lump? (in very good nick, only 2k miles and very carefully run-in)
Alan.
>>> Edited by AlanN on Wednesday 22 September 13:42
whilst I am very pleased with my car, the power delivery is very brutal and "on/off".
I am supposing that this is the Holley, due to it being a somewhat agricultural bit of kit it either dumps huge amounts of fuel in or it er...doesn't.
On the road I'm not too worried about this but it does become a bit of a pain whilst trying to feather the throttle mid-bend on a track
So for a bit more control I'm thinking of fitting a fuel injection kit of some sort.
First question, any suggestions as to which kit to use? (my engine's the 400bhp 383 AS)
Second, any pitfalls/difficulties in doing this on a CanAm?
Thirdly, what sort of power gains could I expect (got to be another reason for doing it
) The other thing I'm thiking of doing instead is buying a new, higher output engine with EFI and swapping it, is there much of a market for a second-hand lump? (in very good nick, only 2k miles and very carefully run-in)
Alan.
>>> Edited by AlanN on Wednesday 22 September 13:42
Agree injection got to be the way to go eventually, good for emmissions and fuel consumption (which is most important to all of us of course) but probably need to go to serious gear like Kinsler individual runner injection to get any significant power gain over carb. The 640hp monster uses a carb I think (hope I'm correct there G-Man).
A well set up Holley should be fine on track and have decent part throttle response. I think mine is OK anyway. Maybe worth having your set up checked on rollers incase linkage sticky or something out of adjustment?
I intend to get round to try DIY EFI MegaSquirting mine over winter (but I'll be keeping carb etc just incase it doesn't work!). You could get a bolt on Holley injection system for $2300 or so from US, will be single plane manifold MPI style so should fit in Can Am OK I would guess. If you went Kinsler you could put the nice shiny air horns through rear body which would be most impressive!
A well set up Holley should be fine on track and have decent part throttle response. I think mine is OK anyway. Maybe worth having your set up checked on rollers incase linkage sticky or something out of adjustment?
I intend to get round to try DIY EFI MegaSquirting mine over winter (but I'll be keeping carb etc just incase it doesn't work!). You could get a bolt on Holley injection system for $2300 or so from US, will be single plane manifold MPI style so should fit in Can Am OK I would guess. If you went Kinsler you could put the nice shiny air horns through rear body which would be most impressive!
Before any move, why not talk to someone like Peter Knight who can provide all the gen on the merits of FI and Holleys.
Talking to a few of the race engineers on Chevys that Peter has done engines for, they swear by the Holleys on track as well as road.
No connection with Peter other than a customer.
Talking to a few of the race engineers on Chevys that Peter has done engines for, they swear by the Holleys on track as well as road.
No connection with Peter other than a customer.
I agree. It sounds like something is not quite right with the carb or it's setup. I have a 425bhp 383 from AS and it has quite a progressive power delivery for 3/4 -> full throttle.
I've had a wideband O2 sensor on my car on the road and dyno. It runs very rich off full throttle. This will be harming part throttle power as well as obviously fuel consuption. EFI will fix the part throttle problems (especially if you hook up the ECU to control spark timing too).
As for EFI kits. Jeff has said a lot of nice things about the Holley C950 he uses. There are a lot of others out there using it on their Chevys. It would be a good fit for engines with our sort of power output (right type of manifold, etc). It looks pretty easy to connect up and set up. It can also control the spark timing which is a big win if you don't have vacuum advance - my AS engine certainly doesn't.
What you want is this Holley MPFI kit HLY-91004101 which has everything you need except for a low pressure surge tank to feed the high pressure EFI tank. I think that Ultima can sell you one. You'll also need a laptop and a friend to work it while you tune...
I've had a wideband O2 sensor on my car on the road and dyno. It runs very rich off full throttle. This will be harming part throttle power as well as obviously fuel consuption. EFI will fix the part throttle problems (especially if you hook up the ECU to control spark timing too).
As for EFI kits. Jeff has said a lot of nice things about the Holley C950 he uses. There are a lot of others out there using it on their Chevys. It would be a good fit for engines with our sort of power output (right type of manifold, etc). It looks pretty easy to connect up and set up. It can also control the spark timing which is a big win if you don't have vacuum advance - my AS engine certainly doesn't.
What you want is this Holley MPFI kit HLY-91004101 which has everything you need except for a low pressure surge tank to feed the high pressure EFI tank. I think that Ultima can sell you one. You'll also need a laptop and a friend to work it while you tune...
I was looking at the TecIII kit www.getfuelinjected.com/mpi_kits.html before I decided to go with the LS1. Still running a TecIII, but not there carb conversion kit.
mark
mark
There's a large race community in the US that uses this product:
www.fuelairspark.com
It has the added benefit of remote tuning (modem or TCP/IP) and there are lots of folks that can help with issues.
I have been considering this for my build and would appreciate any comments. Thanks!
-- Scott
Reno, NV
www.fuelairspark.com
It has the added benefit of remote tuning (modem or TCP/IP) and there are lots of folks that can help with issues.
I have been considering this for my build and would appreciate any comments. Thanks!
-- Scott
Reno, NV
I run the FAST ecu Scott. Great system. A lot of the guys are now switching over to the Holley C950 now that they've added the W02 option. The real thing that Holley has going for it at the moment are all of the data files you can download to get you up to speed. I'm running mine as Speed Density in closed loop and it has really added a lot of part throttle response to my car. Not to mention, EFI is just so darn flexible. For instance, I have been having hot start issues forever with my car, but I just played with this a couple of weekends ago and was able to tune out all of the initial ignition advance from 0 to 500 rpm. As a result, I now have no hot start issues, and I am still able to keep my normal spark curve programmed into the ECU. I also run an IAC motor that seems to work really well and keep my idle constant. The Holley system was designed by the same guy who designed the FAST system so it should also be good. I haven't had a chance to try the remote tuning thing, but I think it looks pretty cool. Especially if you could do wireless with your laptop inside the car while you drove around and your buddy in some other part of the country could tune the car. Ha. That would be sweet!
Cheers!
-Mack
Cheers!
-Mack
I think your right Marky. I've got a Kinsler stack injection manifold on mine and didn't mess around with a carb. I went with an older engine block just b/c it was stronger. There were some bad casting years with these blocks that need to be avoided. Even some of the 4 bolt main blocks. The newer gen LS1/LS6's are fairly robust I'm told and don't leak oil all over the damn place. Ha. If I wanted to go with a high output Chevy, though, (over 600hp) then I'd check out the Dart blocks or even one of the GM nascar blocks. They're much stronger.
Cheers!
-Mack
Cheers!
-Mack
marky p said:
Why do you still use carbs and why do you still use that old engine? is it just because Ultima use that old Chevy that it's the norm? why not fit the later engines with the fuel injection etc?????
Primarily we use the old engine because it is easier to get through SVA/MOT.
The younger the engine the tighter the emission requirements. These tighter emissions and the engine age may also require the use of cats. Whilst it may be possible to fit cats it will be a complete pain it the butt to achieve.
Secondly, the aftermarket tuning parts are nowhere near as prolific as for the older Iron Age lump.
Steve
marky p said:
Why do you still use carbs and why do you still use that old engine?
The reason for sticking with the Gen I SBC is easy. It's very cost effective in terms of bhp-per-£ and has excellent Ultima Factory support. In fact it is the only Ultima supported engine that I am aware of. If they support the newer LSx they are keeping very quiet about it.
The reason for sticking with carbs is also fairly easy. The carb is a very cost effective 80% solution for the SBC.
The big thing about EFI is every time it comes up for discussion on here the thread goes out of hand pretty quickly (see previous posts).
The obvious (IMO) EFI solutions are the off the shelf kits from Holley or Edelbrock for the circa $2500 mark. This is a lot more than a decent carb and intake (circa $600) but it gives you a 95% solution with much better part throttle control (where all road Ultimas live), fuel economy, etc.
Before you know it though someone is suggesting a kit from Electromotive with a 50%-75% hike in costs...but hey you get distributerless ignition (still need that dizzy to run the oil pump though!). It never stops there though! EFI is nothing without a fancy sequential ECU from FAST or MoTeC or whatever and 50 miles of wires and embedded Phd
to tune it....and of course you can't possibly run anything as tacky (simple, straight forward, functional) as a single plane EFI manifold. It has to be a full Kinsler or Hilborn Individual Runner/Throttle Body stack for $5k or more ("Would Sir like his intake trumpets gold plated?"). It's very easy to spend $10-15k on an EFI system for a $8k engine...that yields not a single bhp more!!! FFS!
It's not hard to understand why most owners who have a bit of extra cash opt for getting something like Stigs or GMans engine...more bhp and/or more revs. All you're losing is a bit of fuel economy and cold starting. Ultimately, who cares?
(I do but I'm damned if I'm spending more than $10k just to keep my Ultima engine buzzword compliant!)
Thanks for the feedback, y'all!
Dave, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
And, don't sugar-coat it! 
I agree with you, in many respects...$3k or $5K (or more) buys a lot of petrol. The economy savings had better be worth it...at $X per gallon.
Still, the biggest bang-for-the-buck has to come when you step on the go stick. Is it worth the $$$ to have a (possibly) cleaner running, more efficient, easier-to-pass-polution-tests engine? For me, the answer is probably "Yup". I use a hand-held to swap my existing car's (3) programs...depending on the type of driving I am about to do...economy, power, or SMOG test. I usually run on economy and get between 24 and 27 MPG from the LT1 350 SBC in my two-ton Chevy Impala. Power programming brings that down to 12-14 MPG.
For me, there are four main reasons for building a GTR:
1) to have one of the fastest road cars in the USA.
2) to enjoy the cool goodies integrated along the way.
3) to learn what it takes to build such a car.
4) to have a car that is truly unique.
(spoken like a true geek, Scott)
It may be just as easy to re-jet the carb for virtually the same results. I just really like the idea of precise fuel-air mixture control, at the touch of a button, for different driving conditions.
As far as the fuel system goes...I haven't seen any references to multiple carb setups. There are setups with two and three carbs on the manifold (i.e. MOPAR 440 6-Pack). Does that work, or is it just "bling"?
Mack, you are still planning for Chicago in Nov., right?
Dave, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
And, don't sugar-coat it! I agree with you, in many respects...$3k or $5K (or more) buys a lot of petrol. The economy savings had better be worth it...at $X per gallon. Still, the biggest bang-for-the-buck has to come when you step on the go stick. Is it worth the $$$ to have a (possibly) cleaner running, more efficient, easier-to-pass-polution-tests engine? For me, the answer is probably "Yup". I use a hand-held to swap my existing car's (3) programs...depending on the type of driving I am about to do...economy, power, or SMOG test. I usually run on economy and get between 24 and 27 MPG from the LT1 350 SBC in my two-ton Chevy Impala. Power programming brings that down to 12-14 MPG.
For me, there are four main reasons for building a GTR:
1) to have one of the fastest road cars in the USA.
2) to enjoy the cool goodies integrated along the way.
3) to learn what it takes to build such a car.
4) to have a car that is truly unique.
(spoken like a true geek, Scott)
It may be just as easy to re-jet the carb for virtually the same results. I just really like the idea of precise fuel-air mixture control, at the touch of a button, for different driving conditions.
As far as the fuel system goes...I haven't seen any references to multiple carb setups. There are setups with two and three carbs on the manifold (i.e. MOPAR 440 6-Pack). Does that work, or is it just "bling"?
Mack, you are still planning for Chicago in Nov., right?
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