Hypercars and the Ultima
Discussion
Just been reading about the 918. It sounds mega (with a mega cost as usual) but I am struggling to see how companies like Ultima will be able to invest in any development to be able to offer hybrid technology any time soon.
It is not just the powertrain but also the electronics controlling braking, suspension stiffness and stability control (individual wheel braking for increased cornering ability).
There was a time when a big engine in a light car produced a hypercar beating performance. The new breed of hypercar have 800-900hp and similar torque but they also have light weight and cornering/traction enhancing electronics.
The technology will gradually feed down but will the software be crackable so we can use it. It also applies to the automated transmissions.
Anybody know someone who is working on making this type of technology available?
Paul
It is not just the powertrain but also the electronics controlling braking, suspension stiffness and stability control (individual wheel braking for increased cornering ability).
There was a time when a big engine in a light car produced a hypercar beating performance. The new breed of hypercar have 800-900hp and similar torque but they also have light weight and cornering/traction enhancing electronics.
The technology will gradually feed down but will the software be crackable so we can use it. It also applies to the automated transmissions.
Anybody know someone who is working on making this type of technology available?
Paul
It won't make it into kit cars, this type of technology doesn't as it's too costly to adapt. Look at the basic electronics of any modern car, abs, tc, stability control, all have been about for years, all require mega investment and costly time to get right in a car, which small manufacturers just don't have. If they don't have the capability to do that, then there's no chance of an effective hybrid system like the new breed have.
All these manufacturers have vast pools of engineers, marketing and 3rd party partners to assist, I'm not sure Richard and Ted have the same luxury
Supercars have moved on massively over the last 10 years, I reckon an average Ultima with an average driver wouldn't be able to stay with an average driver in a new gt3 on track.
But I think you'd be having more fun in an Ultima. It wasn't so long ago the top caterhams would take a modern supercar to pieces on track, now mags report the new r600 is only nearly as quick as the new gt3 on track.
New Suspension, gearbox and electronic technology have moved cars to another level.
All these manufacturers have vast pools of engineers, marketing and 3rd party partners to assist, I'm not sure Richard and Ted have the same luxury
Supercars have moved on massively over the last 10 years, I reckon an average Ultima with an average driver wouldn't be able to stay with an average driver in a new gt3 on track.
But I think you'd be having more fun in an Ultima. It wasn't so long ago the top caterhams would take a modern supercar to pieces on track, now mags report the new r600 is only nearly as quick as the new gt3 on track.
New Suspension, gearbox and electronic technology have moved cars to another level.
Surely that is the major selling point?
No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
Justaredbadge said:
Surely that is the major selling point?
No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
+1.No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
Though I used to be firmly in the manual G/box is best crowd, having test driven driven some of the best high end cars around I think a double clutch box tuned to an Ultima would be a beautiful thing, I know its a lot of electronic interference and all that but IMO it's the best sort.
Justaredbadge said:
Surely that is the major selling point?
No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
+2 ^No driver aids, no fancy electronics, just a pure driving experience with whatever power you choose to pay for.
Let's face it, even with a boggo 350hp sbc the car has more potential than British law (or the state of the British roads) allows.
To top that off unless you get a McLaren 12c or better, the Ultima will outperform it on track...and when you are driving it, you can claim that laptime for yourself, not share it with the electronics geeks on a 7 post rig somewhere.
If you built the thing yourself, you have even more involvement.
See
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-lola-t70-...
I know its not an Ultima but everything said would apply to Ultimas too. It is interesting to hear Steve Sutcliffe saying the McLaren felt like a computer with lifeless steeering after driving the GD T70.
Technology has moved on, we just have to be thankful we can still enjoy proper old school driving.
Edited by JohnMcL on Sunday 15th December 12:32
Edited by JohnMcL on Sunday 15th December 12:34
It would indeed be incredible publicity but would the Factory want to give it a try? When they went to do the practice, wasn't the track dry? Any ideas of the time at that moment?
Edited to add:
Just realized that the Factory posted on their FB page that their test driver was saying that the GTR720 was certainly good for at least a 6min55 lap time.
Edited to add:
Just realized that the Factory posted on their FB page that their test driver was saying that the GTR720 was certainly good for at least a 6min55 lap time.
Edited by UltimaCH on Monday 16th December 17:04
Many of us build these cars because it is a challenge.......and we do like a challenge.
However, in a few years time when these electronic wizard cars are available second hand for Ultima build money the decision will be way more difficult if you can't build something faster. The P1, La Ferrari and 918 will never be that inexpensive but the technology will filter down to the lesser supercars - which will.
Light weight will be one way to keep the component car competitive. This does require investment in composite, aluminium, titanium, technology though. Keeping the cost affordable will be the challenge.
Paul
However, in a few years time when these electronic wizard cars are available second hand for Ultima build money the decision will be way more difficult if you can't build something faster. The P1, La Ferrari and 918 will never be that inexpensive but the technology will filter down to the lesser supercars - which will.
Light weight will be one way to keep the component car competitive. This does require investment in composite, aluminium, titanium, technology though. Keeping the cost affordable will be the challenge.
Paul
This is similar to the Carb V Fuel Injection debate of years gone by... were it was too complicated to tune or fit to kit cars etc etc... now its the norm even on kits!
ECU technolgy is now allowing us to control more than just the engine... I have 4 wheel speeds inputs to the ecu so I can use traction control etc etc.
Battery technology is moving fast, it might not be in the next few years but without doubt we will see something battery operated as other than range and cost its arguably already superior to petrol engine power as it has instant torque.
ECU technolgy is now allowing us to control more than just the engine... I have 4 wheel speeds inputs to the ecu so I can use traction control etc etc.
Battery technology is moving fast, it might not be in the next few years but without doubt we will see something battery operated as other than range and cost its arguably already superior to petrol engine power as it has instant torque.
UltimaCH said:
It would indeed be incredible publicity but would the Factory want to give it a try? When they went to do the practice, wasn't the track dry? Any ideas of the time at that moment?
Just found the quote posted by the Factory yesterday:"...no official time as yet. This is pro driver Tom Coronels opinion after a lap of the Ring in our GTR720 during public testing where a "full" length lap isn't allowed:
"The Ultima GTR720 is the most powerful and by far the fastest road car I have ever driven. It's an absolute missile and a huge buzz to drive! The great balance, power and sensational braking make this car staggeringly fast around the track. The guys at Ultima Sports have a product which is a very special machine indeed. The Ultima is an extremely well developed and sorted package. I am confident I can set a new lap record time of below 6mins 55secs for a lap as measured by Sport Auto Magazine in this car. I can't imagine any other road car ever being able to compete with the overall performance envelope that the Ultima has to offer."
Just watched the Chris Harris video of the 918 and there is a "throw-away" comment that the gearbox is a PDK which has been turned upside down for this mid engine package.
Now maybe they have had to mod it to do it, but there must be hope that we can at least do the same for an Ultima. There will be problems with the electronics but at least we know it is possible.
Any software engineers out there fancy a challenge with a probable financial upside with world wide sales of that software?
Paul
I know I keep bringing this up but until you have driven a good automated gearbox (not automatic) in anger you don't realise how it can boost the enjoyment/performance especially on track.
Now maybe they have had to mod it to do it, but there must be hope that we can at least do the same for an Ultima. There will be problems with the electronics but at least we know it is possible.
Any software engineers out there fancy a challenge with a probable financial upside with world wide sales of that software?
Paul
I know I keep bringing this up but until you have driven a good automated gearbox (not automatic) in anger you don't realise how it can boost the enjoyment/performance especially on track.
Edited by Storer on Wednesday 18th December 22:27
Storer said:
Just watched the Chris Harris video of the 918 and there is a "throw-away" comment that the gearbox is a PDK which has been turned upside down for this mid engine package.
Now maybe they have had to mod it to do it, but there must be hope that we can at least do the same for an Ultima. There will be problems with the electronics but at least we know it is possible.
Any software engineers out there fancy a challenge with a probable financial upside with world wide sales of that software?
Paul
I know I keep bringing this up but until you have driven a good automated gearbox (not automatic) in anger you don't realise how it can boost the enjoyment/performance especially on track.
any sequential gearbox could be made to have paddle shift with a pneumatic ram and some fairly simple electrics. kickdown etc can be added too.Now maybe they have had to mod it to do it, but there must be hope that we can at least do the same for an Ultima. There will be problems with the electronics but at least we know it is possible.
Any software engineers out there fancy a challenge with a probable financial upside with world wide sales of that software?
Paul
I know I keep bringing this up but until you have driven a good automated gearbox (not automatic) in anger you don't realise how it can boost the enjoyment/performance especially on track.
Edited by Storer on Wednesday 18th December 22:27
This is only technology that was about in F1 in the 90s, so not particularly complicated.
The gearbox control for a PDK/DCT relies on a very accurate torque mapping and control of the engine. Typically a max error of 5Nm is allowed at torque reversal, and a maximum of ~25Nm at full load. This allows the pdk controller to accurately manage the slip and torque transfer of the two parallel torque paths during each shift event. If you don't have this accurate torque mapping you won't get a very nice shift feel and may of course damage the transmission. For an Ultima, with lots of engine options being available and with generally aftermarket EMS systems that are not "torque based" the calibration task would be very large indeed.......
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