engine runs cool
Discussion
While cruising at about 75 mph the water temp does not rise above 70c, unless I am driving around town or stuck in traffic.
It seems a bit low to me. I was wondering if perhaps I should fit a thermostat of some sort to the oil cooler lines.
I presume I would need to fit some sort of bypass as well?
Engine tuner thinks I don't even need an oil cooler really, but I think they are a good idea for hot days in traffic jams.
Other than that it's perfect. Now it's been tuned it runs a lot better and drives around town at 30mph in 3rd gear, without all the kangarooing I was getting before.
Also feels even quicker.
Engine was way too rich and the timing was out.
Seems a bit odd for a new engine which was supposedly set up and dyno'd in the States.
Gary
It seems a bit low to me. I was wondering if perhaps I should fit a thermostat of some sort to the oil cooler lines.
I presume I would need to fit some sort of bypass as well?
Engine tuner thinks I don't even need an oil cooler really, but I think they are a good idea for hot days in traffic jams.
Other than that it's perfect. Now it's been tuned it runs a lot better and drives around town at 30mph in 3rd gear, without all the kangarooing I was getting before.
Also feels even quicker.
Engine was way too rich and the timing was out.
Seems a bit odd for a new engine which was supposedly set up and dyno'd in the States.
Gary
You must have a low temp thermostat fitted (or no thermostat at all). I believe 70C is OK for SBC water temp though. Recommend an oil stat especially if you are doing a lot of light running, best not to overcool the oil. Can get one from Thinkauto (Mocal), plumb in line with cooler. It will bypass cooler when oil cold, closes when hot (75C) to make all oil go through cooler. On track, oil will get hot and you need an oil cooler IMO. Also oil temp gauge a good idea.
hi Gary, good to hear car is running well did they say what timing it is set at got mine on the road friday and have all the kangerooing you talked about ,where did you take it can you send me the details,did the new carb make the difference do you think? whant to meet somewhere for a coffee .Simon
You guys spend all that doshe on the AS engines recomended by ultima and they kangaroo around and run hot and then you have them tuned and fit different carbis. What gives.
And then you hold the dino grafs as actual. I wold demand a contribution from AS to having the engine correctly set up in the uk otherwise you need to spend more wisely.
And then you hold the dino grafs as actual. I wold demand a contribution from AS to having the engine correctly set up in the uk otherwise you need to spend more wisely.
barroom_spert said:
You guys spend all that doshe on the AS engines recomended by ultima and they kangaroo around and run hot and then you have them tuned and fit different carbis. What gives.
And then you hold the dino grafs as actual. I wold demand a contribution from AS to having the engine correctly set up in the uk otherwise you need to spend more wisely.
An engine set-up on a dyno (British or American) will run differently when installed in a car. The exhaust system is completely different, the engine is now fitted with all manner of ancillaries including aircon and finally is confined in a marginally air starved engine bay.
The issue with the carbs are two fold. The extreme braking cause the float chamber to spill over into the throat causing a rich mixture and a stall. Secondly the carbs commonly available on the aftermarket tend to work better with heavy machines and lack the response our light Ultima require.
Steve
steve_D said:I do not metion the stall under breaking but that is another problem. Wen the engine is new your eyes water with the richness even when not moving so it is not wot you call air starved then with rear body open. Why not have AS tune engine with same exhast as the car use. Ultima should send one to the builder if that is reason.
You guys spend all that doshe on the AS engines recomended by ultima and they kangaroo around and run hot and then you have them tuned and fit different carbis. What gives.
And then you hold the dino grafs as actual. I wold demand a contribution from AS to having the engine correctly set up in the uk otherwise you need to spend more wisely.
An engine set-up on a dyno (British or American) will run differently when installed in a car. The exhaust system is completely different, the engine is now fitted with all manner of ancillaries including aircon and finally is confined in a marginally air starved engine bay.
The issue with the carbs are two fold. The extreme braking cause the float chamber to spill over into the throat causing a rich mixture and a stall. Secondly the carbs commonly available on the aftermarket tend to work better with heavy machines and lack the response our light Ultima require.
Steve
So you seem to sey the engine is NOT a match for the car. So why do factory not get a beter match for the car insted of have you lot retune or put up with kangaroos. Why buy expensive AS engine and then change the carbi and tune it differnt.
gtr-gaz said:
While cruising at about 75 mph the water temp does not rise above 70c, unless I am driving around town or stuck in traffic.
It seems a bit low to me. I was wondering if perhaps I should fit a thermostat of some sort to the oil cooler lines.
I presume I would need to fit some sort of bypass as well?
Engine tuner thinks I don't even need an oil cooler really, but I think they are a good idea for hot days in traffic jams.
Gary
Had same problems, replaced now thermostat. American Speed supply 160 deg.F standard, I used now 180 deg.F, with some bypass holes. I have also relocated the water temp sensor, as it showed lower temps than independently measured at the thermostat. The problem was the location of the sensor, we also checked sensor itself and Ultima gauge, both were exact. BTW, water temp should be between 80 and 90 deg.C, below that is not good for the Small Block, I am told.
Concerning oil temp.: my experience is that there is no problem at all with oil temp in traffic jams, even on hot days. Oil temp. rises with rpm, for example when tracked. In traffic jams the water temp is the problem. Oil temp is even dropping. Might be different with your engine, of course.
Oil thermostat is certainly a good idea. We are not using that but are trying a different solution, that is oil/water heat exchanger. Should help to stabilise the temperatures and is also more effective on track (compared to original Ultima oil cooler, which is not much in the air stream and as thus not cooling sufficiently when you need it most). All of course just our experience. We had also a fan attached to the oil cooler but all it did was to heat up the fuel tank which was not acceptable to me. And it did not really drive the oil temp down once it was above 110-120 deg.C. So the fan was not a solution in our case.
All of course just our opinion, there are for sure many different ways to go.
BTW, the ceramic exhaust coating was in my mind the most effective strategy of fighting temps in the engine bay.
ultimacz said:
Had same problems, replaced now thermostat. American Speed supply 160 deg.F standard, I used now 180 deg.F, with some bypass holes. I have also relocated the water temp sensor, as it showed lower temps than independently measured at the thermostat. The problem was the location of the sensor, we also checked sensor itself and Ultima gauge, both were exact. BTW, water temp should be between 80 and 90 deg.C, below that is not good for the Small Block, I am told.
Concerning oil temp.: my experience is that there is no problem at all with oil temp in traffic jams, even on hot days. Oil temp. rises with rpm, for example when tracked. In traffic jams the water temp is the problem. Oil temp is even dropping. Might be different with your engine, of course.
Oil thermostat is certainly a good idea. We are not using that but are trying a different solution, that is oil/water heat exchanger. Should help to stabilise the temperatures and is also more effective on track (compared to original Ultima oil cooler, which is not much in the air stream and as thus not cooling sufficiently when you need it most). All of course just our experience. We had also a fan attached to the oil cooler but all it did was to heat up the fuel tank which was not acceptable to me. And it did not really drive the oil temp down once it was above 110-120 deg.C. So the fan was not a solution in our case.
All of course just our opinion, there are for sure many different ways to go.
BTW, the ceramic exhaust coating was in my mind the most effective strategy of fighting temps in the engine bay.
A typicle AS dino printout from AS shows the temperatures as 133 f (56 c) for oil and 128 f (53 c) for water. Thats a lot lower than ultimacz is quoting. What gives? If they running at such low tempratures then they can tune for more advance without detonation.
Could that be a dangerus situation if you then run engine much hoter on the road.
Thanks for the advice guys.
Am looking into a oil stat now.
rossins,
engine tuner is down in Woking, a bit far for you to travel from the north east I think!
Just for the record, overall I am pleased with my AS engine. The service they provide is excellent. I had a small oil leak coming from the pulley seal which they immediatly arranged to have replaced.
What you have to remember, is my engine along with a few other owners, is almost race prepared.
These are at their best when being pushed and do not take kindly to plodding around town like your every day car.
My car is quicker than almost everything else on the road. Only a Maccy (and a few other Ultimas) can out accelerate me!!
Horse power figures and dyno sheets sells engines, which means engine suppliers set them up to max, regardless of whether they are drivable or not.
If you talk to Ultima they will probably advise you to go for a more standard engine.
If I was building another, or if this one popped, I would go for one about 350-400hp. As Stig has mentioned it would still be quicker than 99% of all other cars on the road!
Gary
FWIW, My car has turned out far better than I expected. The handling, power and the way it goes around corners is just unbelievable.
I love it to bits.
Am looking into a oil stat now.
rossins,
engine tuner is down in Woking, a bit far for you to travel from the north east I think!
Just for the record, overall I am pleased with my AS engine. The service they provide is excellent. I had a small oil leak coming from the pulley seal which they immediatly arranged to have replaced.
What you have to remember, is my engine along with a few other owners, is almost race prepared.
These are at their best when being pushed and do not take kindly to plodding around town like your every day car.
My car is quicker than almost everything else on the road. Only a Maccy (and a few other Ultimas) can out accelerate me!!
Horse power figures and dyno sheets sells engines, which means engine suppliers set them up to max, regardless of whether they are drivable or not.
If you talk to Ultima they will probably advise you to go for a more standard engine.
If I was building another, or if this one popped, I would go for one about 350-400hp. As Stig has mentioned it would still be quicker than 99% of all other cars on the road!
Gary
FWIW, My car has turned out far better than I expected. The handling, power and the way it goes around corners is just unbelievable.
I love it to bits.
" but are trying a different solution, that is oil/water heat exchanger. Should help to stabilise the temperatures and is also more effective on track"
Have you tracked the car much with this set-up? Please let us know if it turns out to be more effective than the standard oil cooler. My experience is the same as yours...oil temps are fine in traffic, but spike up dramatically when the car is driven hard on a track (or even just pushed hard up some mountain passes.)
Cheers folks!
Have you tracked the car much with this set-up? Please let us know if it turns out to be more effective than the standard oil cooler. My experience is the same as yours...oil temps are fine in traffic, but spike up dramatically when the car is driven hard on a track (or even just pushed hard up some mountain passes.)
Cheers folks!
barroom_spert said:
A typicle AS dino printout from AS shows the temperatures as 133 f (56 c) for oil and 128 f (53 c) for water. Thats a lot lower than ultimacz is quoting. What gives? If they running at such low tempratures then they can tune for more advance without detonation.
Could that be a dangerus situation if you then run engine much hoter on the road.
Here is a link to another forum about Small Block tuning:
www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238
The guy who wrote that is really a top guy who knows the business.
In short: he states that oil temps should be always between 100 and 115 degrees (C) and water temps between 80 and 105 deg. max. In fact he says that water temp should NEVER be below 80 deg. This is why I started to work on my engine - the temps are not stable, either too low during cruising or rising extremely fast in traffic or when tracking.
ultimacz said:
Here is a link to another forum about Small Block tuning:
www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238
The guy who wrote that is really a top guy who knows the business.
In short: he states that oil temps should be always between 100 and 115 degrees (C) and water temps between 80 and 105 deg. max. In fact he says that water temp should NEVER be below 80 deg. This is why I started to work on my engine - the temps are not stable, either too low during cruising or rising extremely fast in traffic or when tracking.
So why are American SPeed running engines on a dino at very low tempratures when ultimaczs link to experts are very positive that you must not run the sbc at low tempratures.
Any thoughts from you experts?
barroom_spert said:
ultimacz said:
Here is a link to another forum about Small Block tuning:
<a href="http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238"><a href="http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238"><a href="http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238">www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB64&Number=739238</a></a></a>
The guy who wrote that is really a top guy who knows the business.
In short: he states that oil temps should be always between 100 and 115 degrees (C) and water temps between 80 and 105 deg. max. In fact he says that water temp should NEVER be below 80 deg. This is why I started to work on my engine - the temps are not stable, either too low during cruising or rising extremely fast in traffic or when tracking.
So why are American SPeed running engines on a dino at very low tempratures when ultimaczs link to experts are very positive that you must not run the sbc at low tempratures.
Any thoughts from you experts?
LONG POST
Well it appears you don't like AS engines
Temp is one of the main ingredients to making HP, not just inlet temp, but engine temp as well. There is a trade off between engine temp and when the engine becomes too hot and heat soaks. When heat soak occurs it heats the intake manifold, this heating also increases the temp of the fuel charge, which in turn causes a loss of HP. The cooler the fuel charge into the engine, the denser the charge will be, and I believe we all know that the denser the charge the more air and the result is more HP (this is the reason people run NOS). In straight line racing (1/4 mile), one of the old tricks is to place bags of ice over the intake before going to the line to super cool the intake, which in turn cools the fuel charge into the engine and thus makes larger horsepower. Some people run cooler cans which have coiled tube where the gas runs through and dry ice is packed in to cool the gas before going to the carb. Some people run wood or phenolic spaces between the carb and the intake to isolate the intake from heating the gas in the fuel bowl to prevent the fuel charge from being hot when it enters the intake plenum. Keep in mind there are several places to take temp from, the one that should be used is at the exit of the thermostat housing, but many take it from the heads which will be 10-20 degrees cooler than the thermostat exit.
I can assure you that if AS has anyone in their firm with a damn, they have determined that at the temps they are using, it places them at the top of the curve for HP vs lose due to coolant and oil temp. It is common to run a car say on a chassis dyno and with each successive pull see a reduction in HP and Torque which is caused by heat buildup in the engine.
When you get into high horsepower applications this is more evident as every one or two degree of coolant temp above a certain point has the ability to cost you a loss of 1 HP per degree of rise. There are tricks to keep the temp down such as reverse cooling, oil coolers, water wetter (a chemical agent which changes the tension of water so it stays in contact with metal at higher temps), running low mix of antifreeze as possible as water is a better cooling agent than any water/glycol mix, metal coatings, etc.
In a mid-engine car you are always fighting temp, best thing in such an environment is to utilize all the various coating available to reduce temp, isolating the carb from the intake, isolate the gas tanks from the engine bay as much possible, run items like water wetter, low glycol mix when you can get away with it, etc.
Closing note: Dyno numbers don't mean you can really run an engine at what they state for any period of time, they are a measure in time at that particular altitude, air charge, etc. where the engine was tested. They attempt to correct them somewhat with the SAE correction factor. Dyno numbers where created to sell engines, they are an over rated marketing tool. If you ask me, the only real dyno that means anything is either the road, or a chassis dyno with all the parasitic drag from the drive train and simulated road along with the environment where it really operates.
>> Edited by gtr4me on Thursday 31st March 23:14
>> Edited by gtr4me on Thursday 31st March 23:14
gtr4me said:
If you ask me, the only real dyno that means anything is either the road, or a chassis dyno with all the parasitic drag from the drive train and simulated road along with the environment where it really operates.
The only Dyno that I trust is the one attached firmly to the seat of my pants.
gtr4me said:
Well it appears you don't like AS engines
My english is not too good but i have looked at my posts but do not see were i said that but apolagise if i gave that observashun. im just trying to learn from others but i do like to understand ALL that i can.
i asked if running the engine cool will allow for more advance and if that could be dangerus if it is then run much hotter in a car. you say the dino run is set to give max readings. you teached me the setup of the dino but no answer to my question.
Edited later to add a peice about the dino tests done in the US Enginemasters competition www.enginemasters.com.
If what you say is true that engineers can set low temperatures to show increase power, then why do the results in the competition run with tempratures oil much higher than AS dino pull and mor like the tempratures talked about by ultimacz. My SBC dino man will not do the runs until the engine oil temprature is much high then the AS dino chart.
>> Edited by barroom_spert on Friday 1st April 17:26
barroom_spert said:
gtr4me said:
Well it appears you don't like AS engines
My english is not too good but i have looked at my posts but do not see were i said that but apolagise if i gave that observashun. im just trying to learn from others but i do like to understand ALL that i can.
i asked if running the engine cool will allow for more advance and if that could be dangerus if it is then run much hotter in a car. you say the dino run is set to give max readings. you teached me the setup of the dino but no answer to my question.
Edited later to add a peice about the dino tests done in the US Enginemasters competition <a href="http://www.enginemasters.com."><a href="http://www.enginemasters.com.">www.enginemasters.com.</a></a>
If what you say is true that engineers can set low temperatures to show increase power, then why do the results in the competition run with tempratures oil much higher than AS dino pull and mor like the tempratures talked about by ultimacz. My SBC dino man will not do the runs until the engine oil temprature is much high then the AS dino chart.
>> Edited by barroom_spert on Friday 1st April 17:26
barroom_spert said:
You guys spend all that doshe on the AS engines recomended by ultima and they kangaroo around and run hot and then you have them tuned and fit different carbis. What gives.
And then you hold the dino grafs as actual. I wold demand a contribution from AS to having the engine correctly set up in the uk otherwise you need to spend more wisely.
I am not afiliated with AS in any way or form, so I have nothing to gain in this discussion other than to spew forth from my keyboard. Having said that....
You switched gears in mid-forum. First you stated early in the thread about why do people purchase engines from AS that run hot. That is not an oil issue, it is a coolant and airflow over the engine issue.
And now your talking about how your dyno guy won't run an engine unless the oil temp is above a certain temp. While oil can be considered as a coolant in an engine, that is not it's primary reason, it is for lubraction. When oil is cold, it is thicker in viscosity, this thicker oil creates some inherant issues with relation to HP/TQ. When it is thicker it causes additional drag, both at the bearing because of the point at which it shears, and also on reciprocating mass (such as the crank, rods, and piston skirts). The the oil is thicker, it will stay attached to the reciprocating components for longer periods. This causes additional weight and drag, and in the case of a reciprocating part may also induce embalance which leads to harmonics in the engine and loss in HP and TQ.
I am confused what your agenda is here. Mine is simply dialog and to contribute, not sure about yours right now
Edited to add, harmonics are not something you want, they tend to cause engine fatique. Ever see what happens to an engine when the harmonic balance goes out, I have on numerous occasions. Broke cam shafts, broke main bearing housings, timing chain failure, etc.
>> Edited by gtr4me on Friday 1st April 22:10
>> Edited by gtr4me on Friday 1st April 22:13
You are proper. At first i seemed to be about some engins runing hot (other postings on this ultima forum talk of hot running). And some runing cold. Ultimacz posting about the recomemded tempratures and I just notised and braught up facts about AS engin dino sheet having very low tempraturs.
You have just said that low oil tempratures do cause drag and harmonic problems. I do not understand that but it sounds bad effects. So the question is still ther, why do the AS dino sheets show low oil temprature
if i am understanding your mening of the word agenda right then mine is to lern more and I am not attaking AS but it is just the only dino sheet on this forum i can look at and it is where overheting has been talked about
My question is unanswered why do AS run engins so cold on dino and if they set for max power can the engines detonate when run much hotter in the cars.
Edit to sey discusing like this is dificult for me in your language so i mis some understandings. Sory if you think i have an motive outside lerning
>> Edited by barroom_spert on Friday 1st April 23:15
You have just said that low oil tempratures do cause drag and harmonic problems. I do not understand that but it sounds bad effects. So the question is still ther, why do the AS dino sheets show low oil temprature
if i am understanding your mening of the word agenda right then mine is to lern more and I am not attaking AS but it is just the only dino sheet on this forum i can look at and it is where overheting has been talked about
My question is unanswered why do AS run engins so cold on dino and if they set for max power can the engines detonate when run much hotter in the cars.
Edit to sey discusing like this is dificult for me in your language so i mis some understandings. Sory if you think i have an motive outside lerning
>> Edited by barroom_spert on Friday 1st April 23:15
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