GTR - new chassis Vs original
Discussion
I'm looking to purchase a GTR this year and am keen to know what the consensus is on the revised chassis since 2013.
I've trawled through numerous old posts but haven't managed to find much practical feedback in terms of whether it's worth holding out for over the earlier model.
Other than the tagline of extra stiffness and safety (& luggage bins - which I thought they all had?), I'd be keen to hear from anyone who's driven them back to back and felt any noticeable improvements in the road and track.
Many thanks
I've trawled through numerous old posts but haven't managed to find much practical feedback in terms of whether it's worth holding out for over the earlier model.
Other than the tagline of extra stiffness and safety (& luggage bins - which I thought they all had?), I'd be keen to hear from anyone who's driven them back to back and felt any noticeable improvements in the road and track.
Many thanks
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Factory stated update chassis has 21 extra tubes and is 553% stiffer which is significant.
Factory stated update chassis has 21 extra tubes and is 553% stiffer which is significant.
EVO CL said:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Factory stated update chassis has 21 extra tubes and is 553% stiffer which is significant.
That is significant, but does it make a difference to handling?Factory stated update chassis has 21 extra tubes and is 553% stiffer which is significant.
Is there a new lap time for the old top Gear track? Does anybody know?
Thanks for the responses gents. Agree, it certainly sounds good on paper, but I'd really like to know if anyone has any first hand experience that could articulate the material benefits.
As it currently stands, if I were forced to choose between similar spec cars on either platform I wouldn't know if the later version warrants a significant premium (for reasons other than age).
... And the luggage bins, did they really only get introduced from 2013?
As it currently stands, if I were forced to choose between similar spec cars on either platform I wouldn't know if the later version warrants a significant premium (for reasons other than age).
... And the luggage bins, did they really only get introduced from 2013?
Luggage bins have always been there but early days they were an option.
What do you want to use the car for?
If it is to be a road car with the odd track day then any difference in the chassis will be completely immaterial.
If it is to be track dedicated or race then the new version would surely be a benefit but I suspect you would need to be a very good driver to find those benefits.
Steve
What do you want to use the car for?
If it is to be a road car with the odd track day then any difference in the chassis will be completely immaterial.
If it is to be track dedicated or race then the new version would surely be a benefit but I suspect you would need to be a very good driver to find those benefits.
Steve
Given the choice I'd most certainly go for the Evo chassis.
The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange. In fact a guy on here a few years ago had a large thread about putting one on the road in australia - it didn't meet the minimum torsional rigidity for a road car, that is any road car, i.e. worse than Toyota Yaris or Daewoo Matiz.
The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange. In fact a guy on here a few years ago had a large thread about putting one on the road in australia - it didn't meet the minimum torsional rigidity for a road car, that is any road car, i.e. worse than Toyota Yaris or Daewoo Matiz.
Please refer me to that source info, I find that difficult to believe. I think the source you are talking about ran personal experiments on adding bits and seeing the impact on stiffness. I have that info on my PC somewhere.
The GTR720 posted a ridiculous time on the old top gear track, if you are buying it for a road car you will not know the difference, and unless you are a seasoned racing driver you wont feel the difference either. Even the GTRs/Can Ams are such capable cars, most owners don't extract even a small percentage of the cars potential performance. That's even more true on a road going car. It all comes down to a few questions.
What are you actually going to use the car for?
How much money do you have? If you limit yourself to a second hand Evo you've just added 15-20k to your budget for not a great deal of functional benefit.
How much do you care about pub talk? Cos that's all this is.
(and of course its fun!)
The GTR720 posted a ridiculous time on the old top gear track, if you are buying it for a road car you will not know the difference, and unless you are a seasoned racing driver you wont feel the difference either. Even the GTRs/Can Ams are such capable cars, most owners don't extract even a small percentage of the cars potential performance. That's even more true on a road going car. It all comes down to a few questions.
What are you actually going to use the car for?
How much money do you have? If you limit yourself to a second hand Evo you've just added 15-20k to your budget for not a great deal of functional benefit.
How much do you care about pub talk? Cos that's all this is.
(and of course its fun!)confusionhunter said:
Please refer me to that source info, I find that difficult to believe. I think the source you are talking about ran personal experiments on adding bits and seeing the impact on stiffness. I have that info on my PC somewhere.
The GTR720 posted a ridiculous time on the old top gear track, if you are buying it for a road car you will not know the difference, and unless you are a seasoned racing driver you wont feel the difference either. Even the GTRs/Can Ams are such capable cars, most owners don't extract even a small percentage of the cars potential performance. That's even more true on a road going car. It all comes down to a few questions.
What are you actually going to use the car for?
How much money do you have? If you limit yourself to a second hand Evo you've just added 15-20k to your budget for not a great deal of functional benefit.
How much do you care about pub talk? Cos that's all this is. (and of course its fun!)
Amen to thatThe GTR720 posted a ridiculous time on the old top gear track, if you are buying it for a road car you will not know the difference, and unless you are a seasoned racing driver you wont feel the difference either. Even the GTRs/Can Ams are such capable cars, most owners don't extract even a small percentage of the cars potential performance. That's even more true on a road going car. It all comes down to a few questions.
What are you actually going to use the car for?
How much money do you have? If you limit yourself to a second hand Evo you've just added 15-20k to your budget for not a great deal of functional benefit.
How much do you care about pub talk? Cos that's all this is.
(and of course its fun!)Olivera said:
Given the choice I'd most certainly go for the Evo chassis.
The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange.
Absolute crap, I ran over 4k miles on track days in my original GTR and it was a sweet handling car with very forgiving characteristics that helped me hugely. There is no question that any car can be improved but will mortals such as me or you, rather than a proper racer actually be able to tell the difference? I doubt it. The factory spent a lot of time and effort developing the chassis, and it was very good, they have improved it but at a cost to the consumer, far more noticeable to most will be the improved fittings and finish. The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange.
Thevet said:
Olivera said:
Given the choice I'd most certainly go for the Evo chassis.
The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange.
Absolute crap, I ran over 4k miles on track days in my original GTR and it was a sweet handling car with very forgiving characteristics that helped me hugely. There is no question that any car can be improved but will mortals such as me or you, rather than a proper racer actually be able to tell the difference? I doubt it. The factory spent a lot of time and effort developing the chassis, and it was very good, they have improved it but at a cost to the consumer, far more noticeable to most will be the improved fittings and finish. The original Ultima chassis from the factory is a floppy blancmange.
I'll don't quite get the head-in-the-sand outrage here, I'm replying to the OP with facts.
Some sources for the poor torsional rigidity of the original standard Ultima chassis:
http://ultimav12.ca/chassis/index.html
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... (Failed Australian tests)
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.scribd.com/document/63386005/Finite-el...
A torsional rigidity of 3,000-4,000 NM per degree seems to be the consensus. A new shopping hatchback is in the 20,000 NM/deg ballpark, the latest 911 is 40,000 NM/deg.
As to the question will a enthusiast driver notice - yes. A much higher torsional stiffness will have far less chassis flex, less scuttle shake, will be safer and the suspension will handle better.
Some sources for the poor torsional rigidity of the original standard Ultima chassis:
http://ultimav12.ca/chassis/index.html
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... (Failed Australian tests)
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.scribd.com/document/63386005/Finite-el...
A torsional rigidity of 3,000-4,000 NM per degree seems to be the consensus. A new shopping hatchback is in the 20,000 NM/deg ballpark, the latest 911 is 40,000 NM/deg.
As to the question will a enthusiast driver notice - yes. A much higher torsional stiffness will have far less chassis flex, less scuttle shake, will be safer and the suspension will handle better.
Olivera,
It’s nothing to do with burying heads in sand, simply about your ridiculous comment. I can see from your profile you seem to think you know a lot about a lot, certainly judging by your posts around PH.
The v12 car was slower everywhere than a factory car, despite being stiffer, having “better” geometry and brakes.
An average enthusiastic driver will unlikely tell or be able to extract the minuscule performance difference between the gtr and evo chassis. A pro driver would be needed and even then the actual performance difference is quite small.
Passengers in mine, including very well known instructors have all commented about how planted and solid it is on track.
Cani detect scuttle shake on mine? No. In fact, ot makes our gt3 rs feel soft and soggy on track.
The “ suspension will handle better”
Brilliant, you sound like a bona fide suspension guru lol.
Do you actually have any experience of these?
It’s nothing to do with burying heads in sand, simply about your ridiculous comment. I can see from your profile you seem to think you know a lot about a lot, certainly judging by your posts around PH.
The v12 car was slower everywhere than a factory car, despite being stiffer, having “better” geometry and brakes.
An average enthusiastic driver will unlikely tell or be able to extract the minuscule performance difference between the gtr and evo chassis. A pro driver would be needed and even then the actual performance difference is quite small.
Passengers in mine, including very well known instructors have all commented about how planted and solid it is on track.
Cani detect scuttle shake on mine? No. In fact, ot makes our gt3 rs feel soft and soggy on track.
The “ suspension will handle better”
Brilliant, you sound like a bona fide suspension guru lol.Do you actually have any experience of these?
Given that the original chassis was the test bed for the Mclaren F1, I still think the performance of the GTR will embarrass most cars on the road or track, How about a little bit of put your money where your mouth is? Olivera, you're in Scotland, so am I, how about a bit of fun up at KH? If you can get within a second a lap of me up at KH on a track day/evening in a car you either own or have built, then I'll give you £100? My GTR is very happy around there, wobbling all over the place and struggling on the corners, surely you can outdo me in a rigid car?
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