Need recommendations for new engine/gearbox combo

[ultimacz]

Need your advice, folks.
We are seriously considering complete replacement of engine and gearbox on 2 Ultimas (1 GTR, 1 Can-Am). Whilst the performance of our current Small Blocks is great (both 550 - 600HP), we want something more high-tech, modern. To get away from the carburator, extreme fuel and oil consumption, leakages of all possible liquids, strange idle behaviour and cold starting, stalling under breaking, overheating, and and and. Should be lighter, too, that means alu block. And full electronic engine management.
Also a fully sequential gearbox, made for 600+ HP would be great.

Many of you guys know a lot about engines and the Ultima. We would need to get your ideas at this stage. Cost is NOT an issue, what we want is top performance and quality. Another issue is space - engine and gearbox should be an "easy" fit, we don´t want to re-design the frame or bodywork.

All types of engines and gearboxes are welcome, but not less than 8 cyl. Just got myself a 911 (996 Carrera 4S), mainly for family reasons to sit the kids in the back, but have to say that the performance does not impress me at all. Compared to my GTR it accelerates like a Fiesta :eek:. Handling and comfort are ok, though. What I like least is the feeling of small torque.
What I learned from this for the Ultima engine project: high displacement, min. 8 cyl., lots of torque, and NO Porsche Boxer engine.

Great if you could help.

[GTRene]

Hi, I'm René from the Netherlands and I say thats a good idea to find a "better" modern V8 for the Ultima! because of all the things you spoke of... I was wondering also on the open day a few weeks ago, I was there and saw all the "old" engines! nice to see and to drive I gues, but not modern anough old techniek...there are some great modern V8's like the M5 V8 (tuned) or V10, or the latest Corvette Z06 500hp engine? (or newcomer blue devil 612hp), or can I say this? an AMG V8 merc engine? they sound great! and do easely 620hp... but don't know if those fit easely?
By the way I sadly don't drive a Ultima GTR on the moment but I know I want one!! on the moment I drive a BMW Z3 M coupe S54 nice but not raw anough..when I sold it I want a 600+hp Ultima GTRrrrrr can't wait, sadly there are none in the Netherlands and in GB they are RHD...aaaaaaaaaa but stil I want one .
keep up the good work
René

[gtr4me]

If you like the the Chevy V8, why not stay with it and just update it to more current day. You can put a Holley 950 EFI, or Holley Stealth RAM, or host of other EFI systems for the older chevy on it to get out of the carb. Then use a Electromotive Direct Ignition (DXI) to get rid of the distributor and ignition issues. And then engine management like the Electromtive TEC3 to control idle, fuel, boost (if boosted), etc.

You still have the ability to purchase the cheaper parts of the Chevy, and if your car has to pass SVA or something with an old block, you can still do it.

As for oil consumption, not sure what is causing that issue for you other than possible blow by. One thing you might look at it to run a vaccum pump to the engine, this will help seal the engine rings during period of hard use, and you might pickup a few extra horses to boot. The down side to running vaccum is you have to make sure to seal the engine really good, otherwise you will have air leaks that allow unfiltered air directly into the block.

[Karlo]

LS7 with GT3 Transaxle. Basicely the same setup that Mosler uses in all of race and road cars with great success. Lots of the porsche racers also run GT3 tranny with durability.

www.moslerauto.com/

>> Edited by stig on Thursday 29th September 13:17

[builder]

ultimacz said:

...Whilst the performance of our current Small Blocks is great (both 550 - 600HP), we want something more high-tech, modern...Also a fully sequential gearbox, made for 600+ HP would be great. Cost is NOT an issue, what we want is top performance and quality...All types of engines and gearboxes are welcome...

You can get pretty crazy with cost...anywhere from $20k to $50k(+). Without stating a budget, the type of reply could be pages long. Also, have you considered forced induction? You should state if you prefer it, or not. Big power can be had with a little boost.

Regarding the fuel available, that will have an impact on your build as well. Over here, the fuel is rated in "octane". Most of the U.S. has 93 octane, while some States only offer 91. I don't know how they measure fuel rating in the Czech Republic.

Are you saying you will build the engine(s) yourself? If so, start with a sleeved LSx block and build from there. Mike Johnson ("Boosted LS1" on this board) can help you with that. In fact, he can build you a complete package ready to drop into the Ultima.

BTW, what's plural for Ultima; Ultimae? Ultimas?

A crate engine might be a good option. But, for the kind of power you are looking for, it will have to be packaged by an aftermarket engine builder; not General Motors.

René said use the 505 HP ZO6 engine (LS7). I have to agree with that as an excellent choice. It's going to be an super mill for the long term (I have one on order). And, you know there will be lots of bolt-ons available in the future. It has a GM factory warranty. So, if it leaks, you can take it somewhere and say, "Fix it, please."

All that said, are you sure it wouldn't be better to work out the issues you have and keep what you've got? Maybe the right thing to do is take your blocks down to cores and rebuild them with fuel injection, better parts and gaskets so as not to burn and leak fluids...unless you just want to be rid of the iron blocks. It would be great to have a "cost is not an issue" approach!

Not sure on the sequential gear box, but do a search on this board you will find some suggestions. You will probably need to change some of the chassis mounts, at least, to fit anything other than a Porsche G50-type box. Again, the price for an aftermarket sequential could be as much as the rest of the car.

-- Scott

PS: Please ship your old engines to any truck terminal in Reno, Nevada, USA. I can put them to good use!

[ultimacz]

Let´s see:
Not sure whether I still like the Chevy V8. The design is simply outdated (2 valve heads, single camshaft with rods,...), gives incredible power but has all the downsides already mentioned. The Ultima is a wonderful car, and exactly therefore would deserve a more refined engine, IMHO of course. For my SB I have used now the best components available (eg. new DART block), and had it built with greatest care, but still it does not convince me. For example oil consumption: maybe I could add a vacuum pump, but I am a bit tired of experimenting. We have honed the DART block exactly as recommended, used Total Seal rings (big gaps, though, as recommended to avoid butting) and the best valve stem seals available, followed the break-in recommendations as close as possible, all tolerances are perfect (blue printed), and still the oil gets burnt. Only half of what the original AS engine used to do, but still annoying. Same for aftermarket EFI: I heard good things and bad things, and then you must be lucky to find somebody who can program it to match the engine - sounds a bit too risky for me, I might end up with even more problems. I have done on my car nearly 10.000 miles now and it is better than new, I believe. If I used it only occasionally on track I could probably live with issues like oil consumption but I want to do a lot more miles on the car (don´t intend to sell it anytime soon because there is nothing faster around) therefore I am trying to get rough power AND reliability/usability of a Porsche.

Thought about the LS7, though. Still the old design but factory build and modern components, I suppose. Will this cure all the problems? Good news is that it comes with dry-sump. But what about the engine management, as I understand it is not supplied? And does the GT3 transaxle fit in the Ultima? If there would be a package LS7/GT3 available for the Ultima, with all accessories needed, I could be probably convinced... Even better if someone offered mild tuning to get it at least to 550HP, better 600, that is what I have now and I would really miss every pony

What about other designs? For example the 7 litre Mercedes engine as used in the Zonda? Or what about the engine used in the McLaren F1, think it was a BMW engine with turbo? Or what about a 12 cyl. Ferrari engine? But supposedly the Italians won´t sell crate engines to me... Any other ideas?

[ultimacz]

GTRene said:

By the way I sadly don't drive a Ultima GTR on the moment but I know I want one!! on the moment I drive a BMW Z3 M coupe S54 nice but not raw anough..when I sold it I want a 600+hp Ultima GTRrrrrr can't wait, sadly there are none in the Netherlands and in GB they are RHD...aaaaaaaaaa but stil I want one . keep up the good work René

Hi Rene,
great car you have, my wife really loves the Z3 coupe, but we had to go for the Porsche because of the back seats. Design-wise the BMW does much more to me, never liked the 911 look, which is based on the 356 which looked like a crushed beetle. BMW shows that the Germans can do good design (occasionally), but maybe only because Mr. Bangle is not German... Probably most PHs will hate me for that, but I really love the BMW 5 and 7 design. Got recently a ride in the new BMW 6 cabrio - that is an amazing car as well! Good luck with your GTR project - I can only recommend you to go for that, there is nothing else like it.

[GTRene]

Hey P.H. thanks, the Z3 M coupe is indeed a nice special piece for bmw, but indeed no backseats... for me I don't need backseat's...got no children, and a girlfriend is anough extra weight ;-)

Is that your Ultima GTR on your profile the red one? NICE...is it in LHD? today a garage owner and Donkervoort dealer told me better not build it yourself, because in NL its hard to get on the road...
but I wanted to buy a second hand EU car, so don't expect problems then.
I gues it would took a while before I could own one! first have to sel my current car...and then try to find a nice fast Ultima GTR.
But I have time...euh....

[builder]

ultimacz said:

...Not sure whether I still like the Chevy V8. The design is simply outdated...

I can understand your opinion. However, there's a reason there are so many are still on the road today. Example: I have a 1976 Chevy 3/4 tonne pick-up truck with an SBC and 3-speed automatic trans (TH350). It has ~360k miles on it, along with one rebuild to the engine and trans. Yesterday, I drove it from Reno, Nevada to Oakland, California, and back, to pick up my $50k car in a crate. I pulled the 2,700 lbs. of freight on a 3,000 lb. trailer at over 60 mph in second gear and 4,000 rpm over the mountains back to Reno and didn't burn a drop...okay, two drops. In fact, I didn't even feel the need to check the oil and coolant before starting the 436-mile trip. There are too many examples of well-built Chevy engines. They have sold something like 50 million of them since the first one produced in the early 1950's.

ultimacz said:

The Ultima is a wonderful car, and exactly therefore would deserve a more refined engine, IMHO of course. For my SB I have used now the best components available (eg. new DART block), and had it built with greatest care, but still it does not convince me. For example oil consumption: maybe I could add a vacuum pump, but I am a bit tired of experimenting. We have honed the DART block exactly as recommended, used Total Seal rings (big gaps, though, as recommended to avoid butting) and the best valve stem seals available, followed the break-in recommendations as close as possible, all tolerances are perfect (blue printed), and still the oil gets burnt. Only half of what the original AS engine used to do, but still annoying...

I can understand annoying! All I can say is - something ain't right about that. No way to tell what's happening without disection. When you say, "We have honed..." -- Who is "We"? If you paid an engine builder to assemble the engine, I would be all over him to get it right. If you are running much more than 12:1 compression, a vacuum pump would help. Still, no excuse to leak fluids and burn oil.

ultimacz said:

Same for aftermarket EFI: I heard good things and bad things, and then you must be lucky to find somebody who can program it to match the engine - sounds a bit too risky for me, I might end up with even more problems.

Hey, I am not saying it's impossible, but... Everything is a trade-off. How many "production" engines can you name that do what you want? You can fit a BMW, Zonda, Ferrari, or other, but probably not without some mods to the chassis. And, you will have to experiment to get that kind of power out of them, too. Here's Jay's GTR with a 12-can BMW.

ultimacz said:

I have done on my car nearly 10.000 miles now and it is better than new, I believe.

You lucky devil!!! I can hardly wait 'til I have 10k miles!

ultimacz said:

Thought about the LS7, though. Still the old design but factory build and modern components, I suppose. Will this cure all the problems? Good news is that it comes with dry-sump. But what about the engine management, as I understand it is not supplied?

Titanium rods, intake valves and retainers; sodium-filled exhaust valve; ductile iron-sleeved Gen-IV AL block; forged crank; excellent flowing head design...but still single cam and single intake. However, this engine will probably run 200k miles without too many issues. It is predicted, with a cam, maybe some mild head work, and a good tune, that the LS7 will easily make 600 HP. Will it cure all the problems? No way! But, you shouldn't have any leaking and the burning oil should vanish.

Yes, the engine management PCM, engine harness, and the brackets for A/C and alternator are not included in the crate engine part number. It does include the dry-sump pump, water pump, and Corvette flywheel without a starter. However, the pundits are saying that there will be a kit of required components available to finish the job. The crate engine is designed as a replacement to drop directly into the ZO6...not a retrofit to some other vehicle. After all, the car isn't even officially shipping yet!

ultimacz said:

And does the GT3 transaxle fit in the Ultima? If there would be a package LS7/GT3 available for the Ultima, with all accessories needed, I could be probably convinced... Even better if someone offered mild tuning to get it at least to 550HP, better 600, that is what I have now and I would really miss every pony

Isn't Ultima working on an LSx chassis setup also using the Corvette trans (T56)? Keep in mind, if you stray from the Ultima SBC setup, I doubt you will find another "package" for the engine and trans. I know nothing about the GT3 trans. I am using an hardened G50/52 with a cable center-shift.

Again, we are talking trade-offs. Do you want an engine you can run the snot out of and never think twice about it...even at the factory 7,000 rpm redline? Or, do you want a real fire-breather that requires more tinkering? Here's what I am thinking... In a year (probably less), someone will come out with a turbo kit for the LS7. I believe 700+ HP on pump gas is very realistic with a cam, tuning, and 6-8 lbs. of boost. I am willing to hold out for that, because I am just starting my build.

You might also check with Jeff Schwartz in the USA. He has an LS6 in his GTR and is very familiar with making power with them. Also, Brammo Motorsports may have another engine/trans "package" they could put together.

Good luck and keep us posted as to your decision. Remember, send those old engines to Reno, Nevada!

[mclark]

I too would like to swap my SBC for an LSx (I know I've only just got mine on the road!!).

I can then play with the LSx in the garage and one day fit in the Ultima, no rush.

Just need to find a reliable supplier of complete LSx units that are either in the UK or will ship here.

The reason for the LSx in my car would be to modernise it a touch.

Michael

[andygtt]

How about the new BMW V10.... I understand its around 23k euro (plus managment) with 500bhp as std!.... also the GT3 is basically a cable shift, big diff, 6speed G50 and should fit any G50 adapter plate.

[ezakimak]

This is certainly a lot of Interesting options for both the transaxle and the engine. I thought id throw in my two cents worth as that’s was makes forums work. So hear goes

You might (and might no) like to consider the engine out of the Australian ford falcon GTP. Its 5.4 litres in capacity, has double overhead cams per bank, four valves per cylinder and makes 300KW (400hp) and 500Nm of torque or about that. Now I know your going to say that “that’s not enough” so ill just let you know that these figures are with a really quiet exhaust on it (less that 95dB) and a restrictive factory intake arrangement to keep it all relatively quiet.
The falcon is probably best compared to the v8 m5 of old and will do low 14sec ¼’s and carry five adults easily. With a bit of work the engine really sounds great. And there are company’s in Australia making performance parts as well (like Herrod motorsports) that do supercharger installations and so forth. I’m sure you could option it up to your liking. As this engine is basically a derivative of the ford 289/302 block you might be able to get a Porsche gearbox adaptor from the guys that build gt40 replicas. Note that these guys are also working on putting the new ford mod motors in the cars as well. (the also use Audi 016 gearboxes)

As for transaxles, has anyone considered the unit that just went into the new Ford GT, the name of it escapees me at the moment look for an edit to this post at a later date

I really hope that the rumor purported above about Ultima Sports working on a design that would incorporate a newer engine are true. Would seem like the smart way to go. There are a lot of places around the world were it is not possible to register a “new kit” car with a sbc. Surely it would be better for them to be proactive in this manner and set a design criteria that politicians can then adopt rather than let the larger automotive companies force the regulations to be so tight that all fun is lost. From my point of view the sbc is on a limited time line in terms of use in new kit cars.

Sorry rant mode off

ezakimak

[ultimacz]

GTRene said:

Is that your Ultima GTR on your profile the red one? NICE...is it in LHD? today a garage owner and Donkervoort dealer told me better not build it yourself, because in NL its hard to get on the road... but I wanted to buy a second hand EU car, so don't expect problems then.

Hi Rene,
yes that is my GTR, it is LHD. It was built by the factory and first registered in UK. I have no experience with self-built Ultimas but have to say that the build quality of the factory was outstanding. There wan´t be many LHD EU cars around, I am afraid, but I have heard of 2 in Austria, some now in Germany, and 4 in the Czech Republic.

[ultimacz]

Hi Scott,
I agree with everything you wrote, you have a lot more knowledge about these engines than me. Let me just have a last comment on the oil consumption. If I drive the car between 2000 and 3500 rpm the oil consumption is very little (tried this on long highway trip). Unfortunately my engine is most of the time between 4000 and 7000 rpm, and then the problem starts. Without being an engineer, I think that this is a SBC design issue, not bad build quality. My Dart block was prepared and honed by a well known US engine builder and all components were new and bought according to the recommendations of this engine builder. The assembly was done in Europe, but with greatest care, everything measured/blue-printed. Took a time of 3 month, no cost or time spared. And this is the third SBC I am using, and ALL have had the same problems if highly tuned and revved. Compression BTW is 11:1.


Andygtt: the new BMW V10 looks great, any idea whether it would fit into an Ultima?

Ezakimak: the Australian Ford engine is a bit too exotic for me, I need an engine which is well known in Europe, spare parts and support readily available.

Anybody checked already whether Ferrari/Lamborghini engines fit into an Ultima? Must admit that the sound of a Ferrari engine (with an aftermarket exhaust fitted) sounds to me better than everything else I have ever heard

[Rich.f]

I bought my chevy from Markus Fahlke in Germany he had taken it out to put the latest BMW M Teck engine and gearbox in, when I spoke to him a couple of week's ago he was getting 230mph aprox on the Auto barns! Aparently he is able to supply these packages for around 30k, as this has been fitted it maybe worth you speeking to him, if you require contact details I can email them to you,

Rich.

[builder]

mclark said:

I too would like to swap my SBC for an LSx...Just need to find a reliable supplier of complete LSx units that are either in the UK or will ship here.

Six months!? Good grief! Makes me wonder what I will want after six months of driving. Maybe that Zonda or M Tech...

SDPC is one of the best (and biggest, and best priced) in the country for GM crate engines. They export. Contact Mr. Kris Jones - [e-mail]

Disclaimer regarding the vendors I mentioned in this thread: Boosted LS1, Schwartz, Brammo and SDPC. I don't have any affiliation with them and receive nothing in return. Do your research! (I guess that's what you are doing)

[gtr4me]

builder said:

Isn't Ultima working on an LSx chassis setup also using the Corvette trans (T56)? Keep in mind, if you stray from the Ultima SBC setup, I doubt you will find another "package" for the engine and trans. I know nothing about the GT3 trans. I am using an hardened G50/52 with a cable center-shift.

I always wondered why Factor Five went through all the hassle of fitting vette components, and then they failed at the most critical place, the transaxle. Seems to me that they should have just used the Borg and Warner Transaxle out of the vette, that would have made sense as you had to get everything else out of the vette.

Would be great if Ultima would be able to use the vette transaxle as it is way easier to get and cheaper here in the states.

[builder]

ultimacz said:

Hi Scott, I agree with everything you wrote, you have a lot more knowledge about these engines than me. Let me just have a last comment on the oil consumption. If I drive the car between 2000 and 3500 rpm the oil consumption is very little (tried this on long highway trip). Unfortunately my engine is most of the time between 4000 and 7000 rpm, and then the problem starts. Without being an engineer, I think that this is a SBC design issue, not bad build quality. My Dart block was prepared and honed by a well known US engine builder and all components were new and bought according to the recommendations of this engine builder. The assembly was done in Europe, but with greatest care, everything measured/blue-printed. Took a time of 3 month, no cost or time spared. And this is the third SBC I am using, and ALL have had the same problems if highly tuned and revved. Compression BTW is 11:1.

I wouldn't say I have more knowledge; just maybe a better experience with the SBC, having used them most of my (now somewhat lengthly) adult life.

It's a fact that engines will use more of everything while running at higher RPM (oil, coolant, metal!). But, it shouldn't be extreme. Can you quantify what you consider "very little" and how much oil is used when "the problem starts"? Mark the oil dip-stick with a pen for the level. Record your starting miles and measure again every 500-1000 miles for a total of 3,000. If you burn/loose a quart or more, I would suppose something needs attention.

The Dart iron blocks have an excellent reputation. Maybe share a little more grog with with your engine builder and see what he can come up with. It sounds like your engine (as most custom builds) is unique. There is no factory specs that say, "Use 5-30 synthetic oil only", or, "This engine runs best on 10W-40 dyno-lube". Perhaps experiment with different weights and blends.

To me, a big issue would be the leaks. Don't allow your builder to tell you, "That is just the way SBC engines are built." Because, if properly sealed, they don't have to leak.

If you are going to get a new aluminum block engine to replace the iron one anyway, you might as well tear down the Dart and see what you can discover. Is it possible that it was assembled "loose"? And, are your operating temps normal?

That's about the extent of my suggestions. Did your builder include crankcase ventilation? Even with 11:1 compression, a vacuum pump would probably help at 7k RPM. Everything is spinning pretty fast and creating pressure. Here's one that I have not tried. They have some good info up there about the theory of vacuum pumps.

Again, good luck and keep us posted. Reno for those old parts!

-- Scott

[ERP]

You were unclear if the engine was burning the oil or leaking it. And your unclear how much.

I would have to agree with the previous poster, your engine shouldn't be "leaking".

I assume from the use of an aftermarket block that it's a pretty aggressive build, if that's the case then a lot of high performance pistons have a design where the wrist pin intersects the bottom piston ring. This is done for better lubrication and to a lesser extent to save some weight. The bottom ring isn't actually the sealing ring, but I know a number of people who say that these designs can cause an engine to use a little oil.

A lot of high performance engines use some oil when pushed. My M3 used the best part of a quart in it's first 15000 miles. And I know of others with the same experience.

The SBC engine isn't exactly high tech, but there has been so much in the way of R&D on it over the years it's going to be hard find similar performance at a reasonable price.

[layada]

Ultimacz,

If you want a sequential gearbox and cost is not an option, then a Hewland may be for you...
www.hewland.com/svga/productrange/lsg.htm

Adam