USA Marketing Success or lack of...
Discussion
I've noticed the Noble M12 at several events here in the USA. 3 of my friends have driven the demo cars. They are aggressively marketing these cars here. They're being imported as ($53000)rollers by the Superformance Cobra importer. These guys have sold 700 Cobras in the USA in the last several years! Their success has been from going to American LeMans, CART, IRL, and Vintage Races and displaying their products. They also advertise in high end publications like the DuPont Registry and Autoweek rather than tiny (kit) magazines with no circulation. It's going to suck when the Noble has more recognition and popularity here and when people ask what our cars are we'll have to say it's the "predecesor of the M12". I recently saw a USA magazine Noble M12 road/track test that said just that about the Ultima.
Jeff
Jeff
The (mid) August issue of Autocar has an article on the Noble and it also refers to the Ultima in the past tense - something that Mr. Noble did in the historical past.
This article is one of a series of articles that intends to explore the current British Sports Car industry. Among the cars that will be featured in future issues, is the Radical - noticeably absent is the Ultima. In fact it does not even exist if one were to look at the UK map accompanying the article, which shows where each of these cars are built/headquartered.
Hope the marketing efforts of the Ultima team show more visible results.
This article is one of a series of articles that intends to explore the current British Sports Car industry. Among the cars that will be featured in future issues, is the Radical - noticeably absent is the Ultima. In fact it does not even exist if one were to look at the UK map accompanying the article, which shows where each of these cars are built/headquartered.
Hope the marketing efforts of the Ultima team show more visible results.
I wouldn't worry about the lack of recognition, it may mean more trophies for you. Even thou the Noble is and will get a little more coverage, the Ultima will still be incredible and perhaps perceived as more exotic. I think also that the Ultima is simply a more pure expression of performance than the Noble.
I'm still waiting to see if you are going to run at the Mid America Motor Plex (MAM) south of Omaha on I-29. Check my profile for the web address. I *believe* they have certain dates you can just arrive and drive. If you ever do go to MAM make a post here and I will try to be a spectator that day. They have a road coarse and a drag strip. Did the organizers for the Sand Hills high speed run cancel or something?
I'm still waiting to see if you are going to run at the Mid America Motor Plex (MAM) south of Omaha on I-29. Check my profile for the web address. I *believe* they have certain dates you can just arrive and drive. If you ever do go to MAM make a post here and I will try to be a spectator that day. They have a road coarse and a drag strip. Did the organizers for the Sand Hills high speed run cancel or something?
David McD (at the factory) once told me that the UK marketing effort is to position Ultima as top of the kit car market, not as a Lamborghini or Ferrari (or Noble!) competitor. Also, they can sell every kit they make at the moment, so why spend money advertising?
I'm not saying that this is right, IMHO, as I work in advertising and think some brand presence is good even if sales are high. Just what I understand the factory position to be, or to have been.
I'm not saying that this is right, IMHO, as I work in advertising and think some brand presence is good even if sales are high. Just what I understand the factory position to be, or to have been.
Yeah OK, But why strive to be average...why not strive to be the best?
That comment is not meant to be slandering the marque in any way, its just the cars are that good, why not aim to be the best?
IMHO the only think that Ultima lacks is pedigree, ie a long and distinguished past. So why not begin that past right now? The product is top notch.Sure they have a few issues (name me one "supercar" that doesnt?), but thats "Character". Right?
Again, IMHO, pedigree also means that everyone knows what an Ultima is. I doubt that there would very few people in the developed world that wouldnt know a Contach, Diablo or Murcielago when they see one.
Or how about a 911. Or any Ferrari. You may not know exactly which model it is, but you know its a Ferrari.
Why cant Ultima be like that?
When people discuss Nobles, they talk of Ultimas as something done long ago by Mr Noble. Is that not slanderous, at least as far as tarnishing the marque if not legally so?
Isnt it about time that the marque should be held in the high esteem it deserves? So what if you or I or anybody built it in their garage, does that make it any less of a supercar? I think more so.
Anybody and everybody in marketing will tell you that the best form of advertising is word of mouth. How much BS was spun about all the so called supercars over the years? Do you remember your first sighting of a Contach? How did it make you feel?
Do you remember the Contach Poster you once had above your bed?
Why shouldnt our kids have posters of GTR's or Canams above their beds?
Its all about pedigree or more importantly perceived pedigree. So why strive to be the best of the kit car manufacturers when you could be a recognised supercar builder.
I guess it all depends on what the lads at the factory would like the marque to become. I also run a manufacturing business and when my target market thinks of my type of product, I want them to think of my product and my name to be used generically to encompass all the products on the market. Then and only then, have you really made it in you field of endeavour.
So, is Ultima to become the best "self assembled" supercar or simply the best supercar?
Just me $0.02 worth
Andy
That comment is not meant to be slandering the marque in any way, its just the cars are that good, why not aim to be the best?
IMHO the only think that Ultima lacks is pedigree, ie a long and distinguished past. So why not begin that past right now? The product is top notch.Sure they have a few issues (name me one "supercar" that doesnt?), but thats "Character". Right?
Again, IMHO, pedigree also means that everyone knows what an Ultima is. I doubt that there would very few people in the developed world that wouldnt know a Contach, Diablo or Murcielago when they see one.
Or how about a 911. Or any Ferrari. You may not know exactly which model it is, but you know its a Ferrari.
Why cant Ultima be like that?
When people discuss Nobles, they talk of Ultimas as something done long ago by Mr Noble. Is that not slanderous, at least as far as tarnishing the marque if not legally so?
Isnt it about time that the marque should be held in the high esteem it deserves? So what if you or I or anybody built it in their garage, does that make it any less of a supercar? I think more so.
Anybody and everybody in marketing will tell you that the best form of advertising is word of mouth. How much BS was spun about all the so called supercars over the years? Do you remember your first sighting of a Contach? How did it make you feel?
Do you remember the Contach Poster you once had above your bed?
Why shouldnt our kids have posters of GTR's or Canams above their beds?
Its all about pedigree or more importantly perceived pedigree. So why strive to be the best of the kit car manufacturers when you could be a recognised supercar builder.
I guess it all depends on what the lads at the factory would like the marque to become. I also run a manufacturing business and when my target market thinks of my type of product, I want them to think of my product and my name to be used generically to encompass all the products on the market. Then and only then, have you really made it in you field of endeavour.
So, is Ultima to become the best "self assembled" supercar or simply the best supercar?
Just me $0.02 worth
Andy
Well to be a Ferreri/Porsche/Lambo competitor it'd have to be a fully built production car. Since the factory doesn't throw in 700-800hp as standard, maybe they could produce a race spec model (basically slightly lower weight, better braking more power). If they did it'd definately make every car mag that exist. Quite a few people know what it is though, at least people my age anyway.
The Ultima does have the potential to be THE supercar, it's really up to the factory to make it so. Maybe they don't want it?
BTW Doc, I'm 70% sure on getting an Ultima. Will be a midnight blue metallic (I also though about red, and a metallic green mix). Now I just need the money.
The Ultima does have the potential to be THE supercar, it's really up to the factory to make it so. Maybe they don't want it?
BTW Doc, I'm 70% sure on getting an Ultima. Will be a midnight blue metallic (I also though about red, and a metallic green mix). Now I just need the money.
I agree Ultima doesn't need to compete is sales against factory built cars like Ferarri, Lambo, etc. Just pointing out how successful Dynamic Motorsports (USA Noble and Superforamnce Dist) is at selling product here in the States.
I'm proud of the fact I built my car, but as you know "kit' in the UK means high quality parts, in the USA it means cheap piece of shit, built on a VW or Fiero. Marketing it strictly at Kit Events in the USA cheapens the image. In the USA it needs to be marketed as a self assembly supercar at high profile racing events. (And maybe posters of it sold at Walmart so that youngsters can dream.) They've been to one racing event in the USA nearly 3 years ago and didn't have a car to display there. Just my opinion. And yes, I've shared this via email with David McDonald.
jeff
I'm proud of the fact I built my car, but as you know "kit' in the UK means high quality parts, in the USA it means cheap piece of shit, built on a VW or Fiero. Marketing it strictly at Kit Events in the USA cheapens the image. In the USA it needs to be marketed as a self assembly supercar at high profile racing events. (And maybe posters of it sold at Walmart so that youngsters can dream.) They've been to one racing event in the USA nearly 3 years ago and didn't have a car to display there. Just my opinion. And yes, I've shared this via email with David McDonald.
jeff
The Noble M12 has a transverse V6, with no more than 300HP or so being recommended. If you're aspiring to those levels of HP/acceleration, it's a great price compared to an Ultima -- but does it have the same potential as an Ultima??
...Given the transverse layout, even if you beef up the M12 chassis, I'm not aware of any x-verse x-axle that can take much more torque, anyway (without costing WAY more than a G50 and making gear-whine more suitable of a track-only car, e.g., a Hewland -- or, as a "fun" alternative, a Toyota MR2 Turbo (E53?) needing a rebuild every weekend) -- and even then, who knows if a strong-enough x-verse x-axle would even fit this car, which is narrower than a Fiero (yet, with wheelwells probably wider than a Fiero's, making for a VERY narrow engine bay).
...Then, an American (cheap) V6 will put out about 700HP, max., on pump-gas -- That's with turbo's, o-ring'ed heads, CAREFULLY-programmed custom SFI (and many hours on a dyno), and lots of other pricey machine-work, parts, heat-barrier in the combustion chambers, etc.
The M12 is meant for use with a **DOHC** aluminum Ford V6, and DOHC is always heavy and expensive, whereas the Chevy LS-6 is capable of putting out DOHC-like revs for about the same price as a DOHC V8, more efficiently than a similar-priced DOHC -- and I doubt the old, non-CAD-designed Ford DOHC has the HP/L potential of the LS-series (i.e., doesn't have RELIABILITY of the LS-series, even if you're NOT looking for 210 HP/L). Alas, there's no V6, LS-series Chevy -- which would probably cost about the same 'premium' as the Ford's DOHC, whilst weighing less, needing less machine-work to get it up to 600-700 HP (and therefore, costing less, overall, for 600-700HP), etc...
But here's another bang-for-buck comparison:
The M12 accelerates about as fast as a Vette Z-06, and corners much faster, but who knows how its features compare to the Z-06. Not a BAD price compared to the Z-06, but not great either, considering you can have the Z-06 WITH AN ENGINE/TRANSAXLE for the same price as the M12 without a driveline. So, once you buy an aluminium, DOHC, Ford V6, turbo's, the tranny, etc, for use with that $53k rolling chassis (probably costing > $10k for that Ford driveline...), the Vette owner could probably whup your ass by using the same, extra $10k (or so) to bump himself up to 600HP ($5k, ProCharger kit with Intercooler), gut the interior to about the C5-R's weight, replace the heavy power-seats, etc. (probably a net SAVINGS once he's sold the gutted parts...), and get an aftermarket suspension/wheel/brake upgrade (easily < the remaining $5k, once he gets some money back by selling the OEM wheels/brakes/etc). With his power:weight ratio 50% better than the M12, ALONE (a $5k upgrade), he'd be able to pass you easier than you could pass him, even IF he cornered slightly slower (or even ONLY cornered approx. 67% as fast as you), because on a track, his 50% better power:weight ratio would let him pass easily on the straights, whereas you'd have to pass in the curves, and it's universally recognized as harder to pass in a curve).
If I were going for 300-400HP, I'd definitely take the M12 over an Ultima...but I'm not.
...Even then, I do wonder if it's marketed better than the Ultima: I don't want a rolling chassis cuz I'm going to customize an Ultima, making a ground-up build EASIER, for me... but there are so many Americans/Canadians who'd probably love to buy an Ultima as a rolling chassis -- if the M12's sales of USA rollers is any indication -- and yet, I'm still confused whether Ultima WOULD ship an overseas roller, because I've seen them say "no" in one part of their site, then yes SOMEWHERE else in their site, and who knows which statement is current? Now, with so many pages to their site (and links to build-sites, etc.), and no prices for the roller (at least not where the easily-found "prices" page for KITS is), I can see the non-mechanically-inclined in the US easily giving up, as they get distracted with all the pages dedicated to home-building Ultimas. Just my penny...
>> Edited by jhr8 on Sunday 28th September 06:51
...Given the transverse layout, even if you beef up the M12 chassis, I'm not aware of any x-verse x-axle that can take much more torque, anyway (without costing WAY more than a G50 and making gear-whine more suitable of a track-only car, e.g., a Hewland -- or, as a "fun" alternative, a Toyota MR2 Turbo (E53?) needing a rebuild every weekend) -- and even then, who knows if a strong-enough x-verse x-axle would even fit this car, which is narrower than a Fiero (yet, with wheelwells probably wider than a Fiero's, making for a VERY narrow engine bay).
...Then, an American (cheap) V6 will put out about 700HP, max., on pump-gas -- That's with turbo's, o-ring'ed heads, CAREFULLY-programmed custom SFI (and many hours on a dyno), and lots of other pricey machine-work, parts, heat-barrier in the combustion chambers, etc.
The M12 is meant for use with a **DOHC** aluminum Ford V6, and DOHC is always heavy and expensive, whereas the Chevy LS-6 is capable of putting out DOHC-like revs for about the same price as a DOHC V8, more efficiently than a similar-priced DOHC -- and I doubt the old, non-CAD-designed Ford DOHC has the HP/L potential of the LS-series (i.e., doesn't have RELIABILITY of the LS-series, even if you're NOT looking for 210 HP/L). Alas, there's no V6, LS-series Chevy
-- which would probably cost about the same 'premium' as the Ford's DOHC, whilst weighing less, needing less machine-work to get it up to 600-700 HP (and therefore, costing less, overall, for 600-700HP), etc... But here's another bang-for-buck comparison:
The M12 accelerates about as fast as a Vette Z-06, and corners much faster, but who knows how its features compare to the Z-06. Not a BAD price compared to the Z-06, but not great either, considering you can have the Z-06 WITH AN ENGINE/TRANSAXLE for the same price as the M12 without a driveline. So, once you buy an aluminium, DOHC, Ford V6, turbo's, the tranny, etc, for use with that $53k rolling chassis (probably costing > $10k for that Ford driveline...), the Vette owner could probably whup your ass by using the same, extra $10k (or so) to bump himself up to 600HP ($5k, ProCharger kit with Intercooler), gut the interior to about the C5-R's weight, replace the heavy power-seats, etc. (probably a net SAVINGS once he's sold the gutted parts...), and get an aftermarket suspension/wheel/brake upgrade (easily < the remaining $5k, once he gets some money back by selling the OEM wheels/brakes/etc). With his power:weight ratio 50% better than the M12, ALONE (a $5k upgrade), he'd be able to pass you easier than you could pass him, even IF he cornered slightly slower (or even ONLY cornered approx. 67% as fast as you), because on a track, his 50% better power:weight ratio would let him pass easily on the straights, whereas you'd have to pass in the curves, and it's universally recognized as harder to pass in a curve).
If I were going for 300-400HP, I'd definitely take the M12 over an Ultima...but I'm not.
...Even then, I do wonder if it's marketed better than the Ultima: I don't want a rolling chassis cuz I'm going to customize an Ultima, making a ground-up build EASIER, for me... but there are so many Americans/Canadians who'd probably love to buy an Ultima as a rolling chassis -- if the M12's sales of USA rollers is any indication -- and yet, I'm still confused whether Ultima WOULD ship an overseas roller, because I've seen them say "no" in one part of their site, then yes SOMEWHERE else in their site, and who knows which statement is current? Now, with so many pages to their site (and links to build-sites, etc.), and no prices for the roller (at least not where the easily-found "prices" page for KITS is), I can see the non-mechanically-inclined in the US easily giving up, as they get distracted with all the pages dedicated to home-building Ultimas. Just my penny...
>> Edited by jhr8 on Sunday 28th September 06:51
In regards to my last paragraph: OTOH, maybe it's simply that there's a smaller market for the Ultima than the M12, because how many people WANT to pay more for the Ultima's higher power:weight potential, AND can afford it? The number of people crazy or experienced enough to WANT that 230-MPH potential is small, and the number of them rich enough is even smaller...
Just thought I'd mention I was at the USGP last weekend, and was happy to see a couple of Nobel M12's across the street from the race as part of a display of Superformance cars (they also had a Shelby Coupe and a Cobra there). The M12 is an interesting design, but I do see it as more of a civilized but brutally fast street car to the Ultima's race-car focus.
There's also an overall feel to the M12's design that reminds me of an previous-gen MR2 with something like a Veilside kit on it. It's pretty outlandish and I'm sure polarizes viewers into staunch "love it" and "hate it" groups
There's also an overall feel to the M12's design that reminds me of an previous-gen MR2 with something like a Veilside kit on it. It's pretty outlandish and I'm sure polarizes viewers into staunch "love it" and "hate it" groups
I think I have fiqued out why there is not much "USA marketing" for the Ultima GTR. Ultima Sports UK might be at there maxium production capacity. At approximately 70 unit a year they might be maxed. Therefore the GTM 200 might have chance.
www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/GTMkit.html
www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/GTMkit.html
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