Hot Starting .... or not!
Discussion
Dear all,
Hoping someone can assist with what may be a novices error ...
I cannot get the car to start when it is hot, but have no probs when she is stone cold.
The starter tries its best for a couple of seconds and then appears to lock.
Have tried with and without a few prods on the gas so I suspect it isn't a fuel problem, although when its is trying to turn over it feels like it aint getting any petrol.
Am only reading about 11 ish v on the volt guage so am not sure if there isn't enough life in the battery.
Any thoughts gratefully appreciated as the car is currently stranded at a pals house How embarassing!
Cheers
Rich
Hoping someone can assist with what may be a novices error ...
I cannot get the car to start when it is hot, but have no probs when she is stone cold.
The starter tries its best for a couple of seconds and then appears to lock.
Have tried with and without a few prods on the gas so I suspect it isn't a fuel problem, although when its is trying to turn over it feels like it aint getting any petrol.
Am only reading about 11 ish v on the volt guage so am not sure if there isn't enough life in the battery.
Any thoughts gratefully appreciated as the car is currently stranded at a pals house How embarassing!
Cheers
Rich
If you take the air cleaner off do you smell fuel?
What sort of ignition is your car running. If you have a low battery voltage and aren't running something like an MSD 6AL ignition amplifier then you might be running short on spark. Not sure why this would only show when the car was warm though. They're usually much easier to start then...
What sort of ignition is your car running. If you have a low battery voltage and aren't running something like an MSD 6AL ignition amplifier then you might be running short on spark. Not sure why this would only show when the car was warm though. They're usually much easier to start then...
Cheers Dave,
Could smell fuel but can't answer the ignition question ... would need to speak to Ted/Rich as it is a factory built car but I believe they're closed til Monday.
Will try again when she's stone cold and failing that will call for the flatbed.
Thanks again
Rich
... getting to know his Ultima!
Could smell fuel but can't answer the ignition question ... would need to speak to Ted/Rich as it is a factory built car but I believe they're closed til Monday.
Will try again when she's stone cold and failing that will call for the flatbed.
Thanks again
Rich
... getting to know his Ultima!
I had a similar "battery" question (and I know its a little thick). Now that the car's safely under wraps, has anyone got advice as to whether it is safe to disconnect the battery - whilst I am starting it weekly, I notice a slight drain in power of the battery and I was thinking of disconnecting it. I do have the standard factory fitted immobiliser.
Cheers guys and a happy NY!
Doz
Cheers guys and a happy NY!
Doz
... update. Car started when it was cold again.
Tried starting when warmed through again without any gas, just the starter. It had to turn over for a good couple of seconds b4 it mustered enough to burst into life. One for further investigation me thinks.
Will try the ignition route first as Dave suggested.
Cheers
Rich
... happy now his baby is tucked away safely. Think I'll stick to polishing her!
Tried starting when warmed through again without any gas, just the starter. It had to turn over for a good couple of seconds b4 it mustered enough to burst into life. One for further investigation me thinks.
Will try the ignition route first as Dave suggested.
Cheers
Rich
... happy now his baby is tucked away safely. Think I'll stick to polishing her!
This can be a frustrating and tricky bit of troubleshooting. Could be a number of things really, so its best to focus on the 3 main ingredients to starting an engine(Fuel, Air, Spark) but not necessarily in that order. The first thing I'd do is go to your local autoparts store and purchase some engine starting fluid that they sell in an aerosol type spray can. Then, start the car, get it up to temperature, and then turn off the car. Open up your aircleaner, spray some of the engine starting fluid in there, quickly close the lid, and see if it starts without applying any additional gas with the accelerator pedal. If it starts, then I'd look into the fuel situation, vapor lock(often associated with hot starts), and maybe the possibility that you flooded the engine with gas in your previous attempts(you did mention that you smelled gas). With mechanical fuel pumps sometimes you'll get a case where it starts and runs for a second and then dies b/c fuel hasn't made it from the tank to the carb, but I don't think this would happen with an electronic pump. Do you have a choke on the carb(electrical or mechanical)? Could be related to your choke. Try taking the aircleaner lid off and sticking something in the throttle plate to open it up(I usually find a large screwdriver laying around for this) and see if the cause of your problem is a lack of air and see what your choke is doing. Finally, if neither of these work, then I'd investigate the battery voltage situation(before cranking engine, and while cranking engine), a hot starter motor, and then look into the spark situation and ignition timing. When you turn off your car, make sure that you've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 12.5-12.8 volts before attempting to re-crank the engine. Then crank the engine and document the voltage. I can't recall what my voltage drops too, but I'm thinking somewhere in the 10-10.5 voltage range is a minimum. Also, before cranking, I'd CAREFULLY, check how hot your starter feels. If its way too hot to the touch, then try insulating the starter(not sure if your starter is on the engine or transaxle side). I fried one starter letting it get too hot one time. Fortunately they can be rebuilt. If none of this stuff works, then look into your hot start ignition timing and quality of spark.
Try some of this stuff and see what you come up with. These things can be tricky, and you want to try and recreate your troubled situation as accurately as possible. In other words, if the engine starting fluid doesn't work and you don't think its a lack of fuel, then let the car cool down, and then start it cold, drive it around a bit, and then check something else. Hopefully, you are giving your battery enough driving around time to fully recharge again aren't you? You'll find the cause of your troubles I'm sure. It'll give you something to do over the weekend, and help in your discussions with the factory if it comes down to that. Also, search the web for further troubleshooting guidance.
Cheers!
-Mack
Try some of this stuff and see what you come up with. These things can be tricky, and you want to try and recreate your troubled situation as accurately as possible. In other words, if the engine starting fluid doesn't work and you don't think its a lack of fuel, then let the car cool down, and then start it cold, drive it around a bit, and then check something else. Hopefully, you are giving your battery enough driving around time to fully recharge again aren't you? You'll find the cause of your troubles I'm sure. It'll give you something to do over the weekend, and help in your discussions with the factory if it comes down to that. Also, search the web for further troubleshooting guidance.
Cheers!
-Mack
Mack,
Many thanks for the in-depth response ... will work my way through all that you have suggested over the weekend
I managed to fry a couple of starter motors on my old TVR and ended up having to re-house it in a cooler part of the engine bay, after which I didn't have any further trouble.
The voltage appears in line with the level that your are suggesting and my gut says that it could simply be that I'm flooding the old girl with too much gas. The only reason that I normally give it a little throttle on start is that it takes an age to burst into life otherwise.
Will keep you posted.
Thanks again
Rich
... whos hot start problems follow him from Blackpool
Many thanks for the in-depth response ... will work my way through all that you have suggested over the weekend
I managed to fry a couple of starter motors on my old TVR and ended up having to re-house it in a cooler part of the engine bay, after which I didn't have any further trouble.
The voltage appears in line with the level that your are suggesting and my gut says that it could simply be that I'm flooding the old girl with too much gas. The only reason that I normally give it a little throttle on start is that it takes an age to burst into life otherwise.
Will keep you posted.
Thanks again
Rich
... whos hot start problems follow him from Blackpool
Rich,
Keep us posted on what you find out. Troubleshooting a hot start problem is much more a pain in the @$$ than troubleshooting a cool start problem(in my opinion). Its pretty easy to flood an engine when your cranking and cranking on the ol' girl and pumping her up with gas. Sometimes it helps to crack the throttle plate open with a screwdriver with the lid off when she's flooded if its not too bad. Of course after a while of cranking, you'll be draining the battery, and making it even more difficult on yourself. Eventually the starter locks up as you described b/c it just doesn't have the juice it needs. It doesn't sound like your battery is an issue. How does your starter sound when the motor is cold and when it is warm? Usually, you can hear a difference if the starter gets too hot. It should never be too hot to the touch(this is when you burn up the magnets). When your engine is cold does it take a long time to start? Typically, you need more fuel to start a cold motor than a warm or hot engine. That engine starting fluid is a really handy product to have around the garage. Especially, if you haven't started a car in a while. If it doesn't start right away after you spray the fluid in there, then open up the throttle plate with a screwdriver and see if she fires up. Also, when I use that stuff I think it helps if you crack the throttle plate open and spray a 1-2 second shot through the throttle plate into the carb. If it starts up with ease, then you've traced your troubles to fuel or air and can cross out a hot starter or ignition timing. Also, have you checked your spark plugs lately? For grins, you might want to pull a plug and see what it looks like. On a flooded motor, you'll smell fuel on a plug for sure. On a sort of related issue, I always trace my cold start troubles back to fowled up spark plugs. I run my motor a little rich(13:1 A/F ratio), and if I start the engine without letting the fuel injection go through its warm up cycle(which is even richer), then I'll never get the thing restarted. You can clean off the fowled plugs with some brake fluid cleaner and a rag and some emory cloth or sand paper between the gap. I don't think this is your problem at all, but it doesn't hurt to check one plug while your doing all of this. Its good to inspect your plugs on occasion anyway. Also, if you suspect the engine's flooded, then let her sit for about 15-20 minutes and try once more. The engine will still be warm. Keep an eye on your starter though. Keep us posted!
Cheers!
-Mack
Keep us posted on what you find out. Troubleshooting a hot start problem is much more a pain in the @$$ than troubleshooting a cool start problem(in my opinion). Its pretty easy to flood an engine when your cranking and cranking on the ol' girl and pumping her up with gas. Sometimes it helps to crack the throttle plate open with a screwdriver with the lid off when she's flooded if its not too bad. Of course after a while of cranking, you'll be draining the battery, and making it even more difficult on yourself. Eventually the starter locks up as you described b/c it just doesn't have the juice it needs. It doesn't sound like your battery is an issue. How does your starter sound when the motor is cold and when it is warm? Usually, you can hear a difference if the starter gets too hot. It should never be too hot to the touch(this is when you burn up the magnets). When your engine is cold does it take a long time to start? Typically, you need more fuel to start a cold motor than a warm or hot engine. That engine starting fluid is a really handy product to have around the garage. Especially, if you haven't started a car in a while. If it doesn't start right away after you spray the fluid in there, then open up the throttle plate with a screwdriver and see if she fires up. Also, when I use that stuff I think it helps if you crack the throttle plate open and spray a 1-2 second shot through the throttle plate into the carb. If it starts up with ease, then you've traced your troubles to fuel or air and can cross out a hot starter or ignition timing. Also, have you checked your spark plugs lately? For grins, you might want to pull a plug and see what it looks like. On a flooded motor, you'll smell fuel on a plug for sure. On a sort of related issue, I always trace my cold start troubles back to fowled up spark plugs. I run my motor a little rich(13:1 A/F ratio), and if I start the engine without letting the fuel injection go through its warm up cycle(which is even richer), then I'll never get the thing restarted. You can clean off the fowled plugs with some brake fluid cleaner and a rag and some emory cloth or sand paper between the gap. I don't think this is your problem at all, but it doesn't hurt to check one plug while your doing all of this. Its good to inspect your plugs on occasion anyway. Also, if you suspect the engine's flooded, then let her sit for about 15-20 minutes and try once more. The engine will still be warm. Keep an eye on your starter though. Keep us posted!
Cheers!
-Mack
Rich
I'd check to see if you have the choke still fitted to the carb, I found this to be a total pain in the ass so removed it (as it could flood the engine when warm and make it hard to start).
My car now starts and runs better when warm and a few prods when cold never fails to get her running, even if you need to pamper her for about 30 seconds after starting to keep her alive when its really cold.
Mack
I must say I really hate that easy start spray and would never use it myself personnely..... I know a guy who built a spyder near me who has to use that stuff to get his car started, and he has a lower spec AS engine than me.
I'm sure this is because an engine becomes addicted.
I wonder if this is the only Ultima junky out there?
Andy
I'd check to see if you have the choke still fitted to the carb, I found this to be a total pain in the ass so removed it (as it could flood the engine when warm and make it hard to start).
My car now starts and runs better when warm and a few prods when cold never fails to get her running, even if you need to pamper her for about 30 seconds after starting to keep her alive when its really cold.
Mack
I must say I really hate that easy start spray and would never use it myself personnely..... I know a guy who built a spyder near me who has to use that stuff to get his car started, and he has a lower spec AS engine than me.
I'm sure this is because an engine becomes addicted.
I wonder if this is the only Ultima junky out there?
Andy
andycanam said:Andy,
I'd check to see if you have the choke still fitted to the carb, I found this to be a total pain in the ass so removed it (as it could flood the engine when warm and make it hard to start).
I'm thinking of removing my choke - do you need to blank anything off when you take it off? What did you do with the choke butterfly? It looks like it should come off its spindle - it seems to be clipped in a slot on its spindle.
Rich,
I had trouble with my starter - as with yours it was OK cold but wouldn't turn the engine when hot. In the end it refused to play even when cold and on checking the starter motor the switched positive post from the solenoid was loose. It had got hot (presumably some arcing within the solenoid) and melted its insulation and was shorting against the starter case. Since replacing the insulation and cleaning up the solenoid terminals it's been OK.
Andy,
You called me out on that one! I'm trying to rid myself of the addiction. Not easy. Such a nasty and embarrasing habit. It helps if you don't have to deal with a carburator in the first place! They are such a PITA. I've sworn off carbs and its rid myself of that old nasty habit, with the exception of an old 4-wheel drive scout that's addicted to the stuff. That ol' girl takes two shots of the stuff to prime the mechanical fuel pump. With the Ultima I can plug in my laptop and add additional cranking fuel with the touch of a button(if needed). Thought the magic spray might come in handy as a troubleshooting aid, though, I wouldn't recommend it as the only means of being able to start a car. Sort of embarrassing to have to open the rear bonnet everytime to give the ol' girl a snort.
That one makes me laugh. I'm sure there are other addicts out there! Must go to confession next week...does the PH forum count 
Cheers!
-Mack
You called me out on that one! I'm trying to rid myself of the addiction. Not easy. Such a nasty and embarrasing habit. It helps if you don't have to deal with a carburator in the first place! They are such a PITA. I've sworn off carbs and its rid myself of that old nasty habit, with the exception of an old 4-wheel drive scout that's addicted to the stuff. That ol' girl takes two shots of the stuff to prime the mechanical fuel pump. With the Ultima I can plug in my laptop and add additional cranking fuel with the touch of a button(if needed). Thought the magic spray might come in handy as a troubleshooting aid, though, I wouldn't recommend it as the only means of being able to start a car. Sort of embarrassing to have to open the rear bonnet everytime to give the ol' girl a snort.
That one makes me laugh. I'm sure there are other addicts out there! Must go to confession next week...does the PH forum count Cheers!
-Mack
Andy,
The choke and its/their temperamental nature were mentioned to me by the cars previous owner. Me thinks it will have to go at the first available opportunity.
Andy/Mack,
Mack thanks again for the detailed response. Cold starting is no problem at all. The old girl fires up first time following a few dabs on the throttle, although the automatic choke is completely useless and the car needs a couple of minutes to idle nicely (probably worse at this time of the year). There are no strange noises at all from the starter.
When the car is hot it can be a very different matter. Depending on how I try to botch up the start I get an assortment of different aches and moans, none of which sound at all healthy, afterwhich it tends to give up the ghost, take its ball home and locks up.
I think Andy could have a valid point with the choke and me flooding her. It re-started today having been left for about 45 mins. Having then run round for about 30 mins to get some charge back into the battery I got home and tried to re-start with no throttle input at all. As I said earlier it took a good few seconds to start her but the choke may have been playing a part in this. At one point I did get a worrying "crack" from the starter, much to my best friends horror. I tried to laugh it off saying "they all do that ... honest".
I'll pull together a strategy plan for tomorrow and report back. Unfortunately the weather for the North West of England will be back to its usual worst tommorow so it'll be an in garage attempt ... lets hope its a short investigation cos' with all the fumes I'll pass out after a couple of attempts!
Many thanks again
Rich
The choke and its/their temperamental nature were mentioned to me by the cars previous owner. Me thinks it will have to go at the first available opportunity.
Andy/Mack,
Mack thanks again for the detailed response. Cold starting is no problem at all. The old girl fires up first time following a few dabs on the throttle, although the automatic choke is completely useless and the car needs a couple of minutes to idle nicely (probably worse at this time of the year). There are no strange noises at all from the starter.
When the car is hot it can be a very different matter. Depending on how I try to botch up the start I get an assortment of different aches and moans, none of which sound at all healthy, afterwhich it tends to give up the ghost, take its ball home and locks up.
I think Andy could have a valid point with the choke and me flooding her. It re-started today having been left for about 45 mins. Having then run round for about 30 mins to get some charge back into the battery I got home and tried to re-start with no throttle input at all. As I said earlier it took a good few seconds to start her but the choke may have been playing a part in this. At one point I did get a worrying "crack" from the starter, much to my best friends horror. I tried to laugh it off saying "they all do that ... honest".
I'll pull together a strategy plan for tomorrow and report back. Unfortunately the weather for the North West of England will be back to its usual worst tommorow so it'll be an in garage attempt ... lets hope its a short investigation cos' with all the fumes I'll pass out after a couple of attempts!
Many thanks again
Rich
Rich,
Glad to hear your having fun
Solutions I'd suggest are all above. Hot starting requires you to learn the 'knack' that works for your car. With mine, I have to give it one full dab of throttle (which pumps about half a litre of fuel into the carb barrels!) and then crank it. My car has no choke either as it has the newer Demon carb from AS.
The starter motor cooling is definitely worth looking at. You probably know that TVRs suffer from it alot. Demon Tweeks etc. sell various cooling jackets which should help.
Hope to see you and the car soon and that you're enjoying the ownership experience!
Glad to hear your having fun
Solutions I'd suggest are all above. Hot starting requires you to learn the 'knack' that works for your car. With mine, I have to give it one full dab of throttle (which pumps about half a litre of fuel into the carb barrels!) and then crank it. My car has no choke either as it has the newer Demon carb from AS.
The starter motor cooling is definitely worth looking at. You probably know that TVRs suffer from it alot. Demon Tweeks etc. sell various cooling jackets which should help.
Hope to see you and the car soon and that you're enjoying the ownership experience!
Cheers everyone ...
I'm off into the garage to have a play. Will attempt to remove the choke if I can find it Any advice would be much appreciated as I suspect I will be back at the pc after an hour of frustration.
Have just picked up the new Tweeks catalogue so will have a butchers at some insulators a bit later on.
Thanks
Rich
I'm off into the garage to have a play. Will attempt to remove the choke if I can find it
Any advice would be much appreciated as I suspect I will be back at the pc after an hour of frustration. Have just picked up the new Tweeks catalogue so will have a butchers at some insulators a bit later on.
Thanks
Rich
ultimarich said:Just did mine this morning - knew I should have taken some pics! As Steve says the choke butterfly plate just pulls out of the slotted shaft, then the shaft can be withdrawn from the carb. Remove the split pin from the lower end of the linkage rod which connects the butterfly to the choke mechanism and the rod can then be removed from the top of the carb. The choke mechanism is held on by 3 screws. After pulling off the vacuum tube I plugged that with a little screw.
I'm off into the garage to have a play. Will attempt to remove the choke if I can find it
Car started fine from cold - as Stig says the accelerator pumps dump bucketloads of fuel in the carb when you prod the accelerator anyway.
I'm hoping this will help my idling - once warm it idles fine for a short while then dies.Ok gents ...
Before I go past the point of no return and break something I would appreciate any comments re: removing the choke ...
1. Have located the split pin and can remove.
2. Do the 2 electrical spade contacts on the choke body affect anything else ??? ... or can these be left unattached once removed.
3. .. and final check, the 3 screws to remove the choke are the "star" key ones, and not the phillips screws that mate onto the carb body itself.
Poise and ready for surgery.
Thanks in advance
Rich
Before I go past the point of no return and break something I would appreciate any comments re: removing the choke ...
1. Have located the split pin and can remove.
2. Do the 2 electrical spade contacts on the choke body affect anything else ??? ... or can these be left unattached once removed.
3. .. and final check, the 3 screws to remove the choke are the "star" key ones, and not the phillips screws that mate onto the carb body itself.
Poise and ready for surgery.
Thanks in advance
Rich
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